D&D 5E I think WotC has it backwards (re: story arcs)

[Mercurius]

[MENTION=37579]Jester Canuck[/MENTION] - wow, forget Wall of Books, how about Wall of Text?! ;-)

Seriously though, I really appreciate the time you put into that and agree with most of your points and the overall gist of your argument. One thing to mention, though, is that much of what you're saying is arguing against the excesses of the past, which I fully agree with, but not necessarily arguing against a "middle ground." Now you say towards the end that a reduced release schedule is just delaying the inevitable entropic process of the edition cycle, which I don't disagree with, but then you offer a version of a middle ground which is somewhat akin to what I was advocating for in terms of quantity of product, and more along the lines of the "3" that I see as the sweet-spot on the 0-5 scale I posited up thread.

So interestingly enough, we're not far apart after all of that. Neither of us want the bloat of the past, but we also both can envision a bit more than what WotC is currently offering. I do really like your suggestion of themed expansions - psionics, mythic, etc. To be honest I though that was the approach that they were going to take with their story arcs, with a two-book-per-arc release, one that is the adventure itself, the other that is the world, alternate rules, player options, etc. It seems like they aren't taking that approach after all.

So if I hear you correctly, you're suggesting that they stay the course of two story arcs per year, eventually add a campaign setting, a second monster book, and a themed expansion every once in a while. That doesn't sound too far away from what I'm advocating for. I also agree that a set formula is artificial and leads to padding products. That said, there's something nice about looking forward to a big GenCon release every year.

So all that said, I don't see how we're not too far apart. I have only ever really advocated for something more than two story arcs per year only, but quite a bit less than the bloat of the past. I do really like your theme expansion idea, which intuitively clicks as a good way to go, but it remains to be seen what WotC will actually do.

 

[DEFCON 1]

But, what does "move on" mean in this context? Stop playing 5e because of a lack of support? Continue playing but stop checking what's coming out? What? I mean, they've been pretty forthcoming about the releases at least for books - you get two AP's a year. That's it. It's been a year, and yup, that's what we got.

There won't be anything else. Why would you think there would be?

Exactly.

We all know pretty much what is happening. Almost everything WotC talked about prior to 5E's release last summer is happening. There is nothing that should be a shock to anyone, so if you haven't "moved on" yet... I'd suggest you aren't moving on at all. Or at the very least... moving on so slowly that you're still going to drop six to twelve months of complaints that you aren't hearing anything as you are moving on.

And as these complaints are the exact same ones WotC has heard over the last nine months... the same complaints by the same people who all say they ARE going to "move on" if they don't hear anything... there is absolutely no evidence WotC has seen to actually be worried about it. If you don't actually act on it, continually suggesting that you're going to leave unless WotC tells you specific plans for the future is not actually going to inspire them to do anything. Because you're just crying wolf.

WotC will probably start being worried once all of the complaints STOP... because that'll be the true indication that all those who said they were going to leave if they didn't get what they wanted, actually did.

 

[Eric V]

If WotC kept up the current release schedule in terms of number of words, but divided them differently, I'd probably be a happier (read: spend more money) customer.

As in, instead of multiple 1-15 APs, release one such product, then also make other, one-shot adventure modules. As it is, my group bought HotDQ and that is it. Had there been other stand-alone mods, we would have definitely bought them, even if we didn't end up using them as is (Goldomark's point earlier in the thread).

That would satisfy a lot of us, I do believe, and it wouldn't even be more content, per se.

 

[DEFCON 1]

If WotC kept up the current release schedule in terms of number of words, but divided them differently, I'd probably be a happier (read: spend more money) customer.

As in, instead of multiple 1-15 APs, release one such product, then also make other, one-shot adventure modules. As it is, my group bought HotDQ and that is it. Had there been other stand-alone mods, we would have definitely bought them, even if we didn't end up using them as is (Goldomark's point earlier in the thread).

That would satisfy a lot of us, I do believe, and it wouldn't even be more content, per se.

Perhaps. But then we counter that by the number of people who bought HotDQ because it was one book with eight levels worth of adventures. Or will buy PoA because it's one book with an entire campaign in it, 13 to 15 levels of content. Add in the fact that you are buying all 13-15 levels of content regardless... as opposed to picking and choosing which bunches of 1-3 levels of content you'd pick up if the content was released in like five smaller adventures... who's to say which group is generating more money for WotC?

I ain't gonna say it, cause I don't know. WotC might not even know completely, but I'm willing to bet they have a better idea than any of us. So I'm not willing to say one book with 15 levels of content will make them more or less money than 5 books of 3 levels of content. And anyone who thinks that their preference of book model is the one that is the correct one for making WotC the most money in the long run is fooling themselves. You just want to give the impression that your preference are right so that WotC will agree with you and give you what you want. Even though you have absolutely no proof to that fact.

 

[Jester David]

So interestingly enough, we're not far apart after all of that. Neither of us want the bloat of the past, but we also both can envision a bit more than what WotC is currently offering. I do really like your suggestion of themed expansions - psionics, mythic, etc. To be honest I though that was the approach that they were going to take with their story arcs, with a two-book-per-arc release, one that is the adventure itself, the other that is the world, alternate rules, player options, etc. It seems like they aren't taking that approach after all.

I had expected a two-book-per-arc release as well, because I didn't really expect WotC to just stop making expansions. It made some sense as it ties into the story while making it easier to only pick the accessories tied to the storylines you want and making the rest optional.
But that gets tricky as it's still mandated content. For example, if they released a tie-in book for Rage of the Demons that's full of both Underdark and demon fighting rules and then in 18 months they do a Mind Flayer or drow centric storyline they have to do another Underdark sourcebook. And they'd still have to fill whole books with content. As has been shown with Unearthed Arcana, you can cover a theme quite well with just a taste of content.

I can't imagine them not releasing something at GenCon. Even in 2013 in the middle of the playtest they managed to get a product released. But maybe they really are dedicated to just the adventures. I don't know what the full D&D would busy doing in that eventuality, since there's two (and formerly three) people on the rules team and that many people are not needed to write an article each month. They have to be doing *something*.

 

[Mercurius]

[MENTION=37579]Jester Canuck[/MENTION], maybe they're busy scouring EN World looking for suggestions as to what to do with their copious amounts of free time.

But yeah, it seems like we should be seeing something at GenCon. My fear is that it will just be promo material for the demon thing.

I hope it isn't another Monster Manual as I'd like to see those be more every other year or so. It doesn't seem like we'll see a splat, so a FR book seems most likely. But who knows.

 

[Kramodlog]

Do they have a history of surprised hardcovers releases at GenCon? I do not mean early sells of stuff we knew we were getting, but a suprised Psionic Handbook or Dragons of Fearun that no one saw coming?

I'm sure there were lots of surprise adventures and I'm sure there will be one for the AL that launches Rage over Drizzt.

 

[Nellisir]

You just want to give the impression that your preference are right so that WotC will agree with you and give you what you want.

Well...yes.

 

[Eric V]

You just want to give the impression that your preference are right so that WotC will agree with you and give you what you want. Even though you have absolutely no proof to that fact.

Back it up, Defcon. I did no such thing; go back and read what I posted and you'll see. Stop assigning motives to me and putting words in my mouth, thank you.

I am surprised I am not being given more opportunities to give WotC my money. That's all.

 

[Benji]

Do they have a history of surprised hardcovers releases at GenCon?

Not at Gen Con specifically but they're being a lot more secretive with releases, so it's possible - For Out Of The Abyss, we found out quite late in the day and Dragon+ & Fantasy ground we got an announcement day of release.

Plus, this is a thing all the cool kids are doing.