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D&D 5E I think WotC has it backwards (re: story arcs)

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I don't think there's a question that more is desired. I think the question is about how much more they can give and still avoid the edition treadmill problem. It is pretty clear that WotC is not interested in a boom-and-bust cycle, so putting out as much as people are willing to buy at the moment is not really an option.

Precisely. I suspect this entire time WotC has been asking themselves this important question in regards to content: "Which group is going to be bigger-- those players not playing 5E right now because they feel like they don't have enough stuff to play with and they won't start playing until they do... or those players who stop playing the game in Year 3/4/X because they have so much stuff that they've either burned themselves out on the game or feel the game is now too unwieldy to play effectively?"

Both groups have worthwhile arguments and the feelings of both groups can and will be true. And thus... they've had to try and figure out or guesstimate which group will be bigger, and thus cost them more players and fans (and money) in the long run. It seems that they've decided the latter group will end up being the bigger issue over the life of the game, and thus have set themselves up to minimize those player's issues. As a result, the first group is the one who gets short shrift. But as they were the ones who were serviced during both 3E and 4E (while the 'burn out' folks got the short end)... what goes around eventually has to come around I guess.

On the bright side... those players who don't want to play 5E right now because they don't have enough stuff to warrant starting a 5E campaign, will eventually have what they want probably in three or four years time. So by that point, maybe they will have burned out on 3.5 or PF and decide to switch over to 5E then? And I don't doubt WotC will welcome them into the 5E fold with open arms.
 

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Precisely. I suspect this entire time WotC has been asking themselves this important question in regards to content: "Which group is going to be bigger-- those players not playing 5E right now because they feel like they don't have enough stuff to play with and they won't start playing until they do... or those players who stop playing the game in Year 3/4/X because they have so much stuff that they've either burned themselves out on the game or feel the game is now too unwieldy to play effectively?"

Both groups have worthwhile arguments and the feelings of both groups can and will be true. And thus... they've had to try and figure out or guesstimate which group will be bigger, and thus cost them more players and fans (and money) in the long run. It seems that they've decided the latter group will end up being the bigger issue over the life of the game, and thus have set themselves up to minimize those player's issues. As a result, the first group is the one who gets short shrift. But as they were the ones who were serviced during both 3E and 4E (while the 'burn out' folks got the short end)... what goes around eventually has to come around I guess.

Further, by increasing the length of the edition cycle, Wizards have have also reduced their development cost. They have stated that their goal was to develop an evergreen edition. I don't know if that is possible, but it certainly has to be attractive from a financial standpoint.
 

Nellisir

Hero
On the bright side... those players who don't want to play 5E right now because they don't have enough stuff to warrant starting a 5E campaign, will eventually have what they want probably in three or four years time. So by that point, maybe they will have burned out on 3.5 or PF and decide to switch over to 5E then? And I don't doubt WotC will welcome them into the 5E fold with open arms.

I dunno; I've read the core books and while I like 5e a lot, I'm not going to hang around for a few years for them to put out something that's actually interesting. They'll have to win me back all over again, and at that point, 5e won't be new and shiny anymore. It'll be just another set of books on the shelf.
 


Mercurius

Legend
Might I suggest checking out the 5e adventure Deadly Delves: Rescue from Tyrkaven from Jon Brazer Enterprises, my company.

I can't seem to get the preview to work - my browser says it can't connect to the server. I'll check again, though.

OK... Why do people find it difficult to create their own material, like adventures, with the core rules???? Its all there.

A few folks have already answered this, but I'll say again that it really comes down to time.

Funny thing, before 4e's official announcement, I remember Scott Rouse coming on these board and asking that if you were in charge of D&D's fluff division, what would you do. One popular idea in that thread (IIRC, I argued for it as well) was for yearly campaign settings. And that was exactly what they did with 4e. It did not turn out well. IMO, it was the execution that killed it. I did not figure that Wizards would treat the Forgotten Realms in that way. I thought it would be their one setting that would get support every year. I also suggested (IIRC) that after their first year, the settings should be licensed off to D&D Compatible publishers to continue their support after the highest profit period for that setting was over, which didn't happen. Instead we got a campaign setting book, a short adventure, and either a player's guide or a monster book (in dark sun's case). We got generic supplements, but all in all the campaign settings themselves did not receive much support. So it is down to an execution problem, not an idea problem.

I very much agree, and I worry that decisions are made in reaction against such situations, as if conflating execution and idea. As I think you imply here, what the Realms (or any setting, imo) needs is more usable, smaller parts. If I were WotC, I might not even start with a full campaign guide, but rather start with a Sword Coast hardcover. The first fifty pages or so could be an overview of the Realms as a whole, but the rest would be a detailed presentation of the Sword Coast, then with an even more detailed focus on a specific region that could be used as a starting area for a Sword Coast campaign. Then maybe in another year you could do the Dalelands, a year after that Thay and the Unapproachable East, and so forth. Alongside each region book you could publish a story arc that brings it to life. But unlike prior editions, you don't need to do every corner of the Realms - because there is a financial diminishing returns the further you go from core, archetypal D&D - which is best represented by the Sword Coast and Dalelands.

Finally, each book could have an appendix describing products from past editions, sort of like an annotated bibliography - or maybe that would be online, a PDF file with hyperlinks to dndclassics.com.

When people argued for a long campaign, I don't think that they meant for that being the only support the game gets. I think those that argued for it felt that their campaigns should be the focus point for a series of supplements: a campaign setting book for the general area for game masters (that can also be used to make your own adventures), player's supplement(s) that may or may not have anything to do with the campaign, and a number of short adventures that could be used with that particular campaign if it went off the rails or could just as easily be used in someone's home campaign.

So again, we come down to execution, not the idea. Elemental Evil's Player's Companion is a great start for the player's supplement, but more is desired.

I agree with you, although personally think where past editions got derailed was too much player material. But the real missing link, imo, is the lack of short adventures and setting materials.

I don't think there's a question that more is desired. I think the question is about how much more they can give and still avoid the edition treadmill problem. It is pretty clear that WotC is not interested in a boom-and-bust cycle, so putting out as much as people are willing to buy at the moment is not really an option.

Yes, I agree. And it seems that they clearly reduced to a skeleton crew, just enough to guide this minimalist approach. But what I find odd is that we've heard that 5E is a smashing success, more so than expected even, yet we haven't seen any ramping up. I would have thought that this success would at least lead to a slightly expanded minimalist approach. I don't expect or even want the glut and treadmill of past editions, but there's a huge spectrum between the minimalism that we've seen and the excesses of 2E, 3E, and 4E.

I have no idea what is financially viable, but if I were running the show I'd go for something like this, per annum:

*One big Pathfinder-esque hardcover splat - e.g. Manual of the Planes, Unearthed Arcana, etc.
*One Monster Manual or Fiend Folio in hardcover form.
*One new region book for the Realms (or focus setting of choice).
*One story arc for the region book.
*One big box set with a theme setting booklet, book of adventures, and story arc (e.g. something like Night Below).
*Two or three shorter one-off adventures.
*One or two miscellaneous products - probably softcover (e.g. Book of Lairs, new or classic setting gazetteers, possibly to be expanded later, etc).

That's 4 hardcover products, 1 box set, and 3-5 softcovers - so 8-10 products overall. Hardly a glut, but far more satisfying and diversified than what we see now. Alternately, or additionally, they could have an OGL and reduce some of the product above, like the one-off adventures, and produce only 5-8 books per year.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I dunno; I've read the core books and while I like 5e a lot, I'm not going to hang around for a few years for them to put out something that's actually interesting. They'll have to win me back all over again, and at that point, 5e won't be new and shiny anymore. It'll be just another set of books on the shelf.

What's wrong with that? If you aren't playing the game now because it isn't interesting... then so be it. But in five years time, if the game has produced enough stuff to have something interesting for you, what difference does it make if it's not "shiny and new"? What does that have to do with anything? If the game is interesting, you play it. If it's not, you don't. Age shouldn't have anything to do with it.
 

Staffan

Legend
I very much agree, and I worry that decisions are made in reaction against such situations, as if conflating execution and idea.

One of the big impressions I have of Wizards is that they always go "all in" with their strategies. For example, when making 3e and 3.5e, the prevailing wisdom was that player-focused material sold well, and DM-focused material didn't. So they made a crap-ton of player-focused material, and put a bunch of player-focused material in books that would otherwise have been mostly DM-focused (e.g. feats, prestige classes, and such in setting material).

The strategy mostly continued in 4e, albeit with a different flavoring to the material (more focus on encounter balance than daily attrition).

After a while, they saw that this plan wasn't working out so well, with people complaining about rules bloat and clamoring for adventures. They also saw the success of Pathfinder with its adventure-focused releases. So BAM! Suddenly, nothing but adventures, a far slower release schedule, and no player material at all (other than half-baked stuff via the website).

Personally, I think Wizards could learn some moderation. Different customers want different things. Some want mega-adventures like Princes of the Apocalypse. Others want smaller one-shots. Some want PC material. Some want settings. Some want more monsters. Currently, only one of those categories is being properly served.

As I think you imply here, what the Realms (or any setting, imo) needs is more usable, smaller parts. If I were WotC, I might not even start with a full campaign guide, but rather start with a Sword Coast hardcover. The first fifty pages or so could be an overview of the Realms as a whole, but the rest would be a detailed presentation of the Sword Coast, then with an even more detailed focus on a specific region that could be used as a starting area for a Sword Coast campaign.

That sounds like a cool idea - a Gazetteer-style (as in the Known World for BECMI D&D) approach to FR, with the first product being about half general overview and half area-focused gazetteer, and later ones being smaller and all gazetteer.
 


Nellisir

Hero
What's wrong with that? If you aren't playing the game now because it isn't interesting... then so be it. But in five years time, if the game has produced enough stuff to have something interesting for you, what difference does it make if it's not "shiny and new"? What does that have to do with anything? If the game is interesting, you play it. If it's not, you don't. Age shouldn't have anything to do with it.

Momentum vs inertia. Six months ago, I was excited for 5e. Now, not so much. WotC had my interest; now they're losing it. Assuming I'm going to be in some kind of anticipatory limbo indefinitely is, frankly, stupid. If I quit buying D&D altogether, I'm not going to know what they put out.

Years and years and years ago, TSR did a poll. The vast majority (75%+?) of Dungeon magazine purchasers bought it to read, and never ran anything from it. That's the market WotC has abandoned. Are they wrong to do so? I dunno. Maybe in ten years I'll look back and say WotC was right to drop me as a consumer and pursue a different audience. Maybe D&D will be 3 core books and a few adventure path hardbacks on a Barnes & Nobles bookshelf, having been functionally shuttered after two years.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Momentum vs inertia. Six months ago, I was excited for 5e. Now, not so much. WotC had my interest; now they're losing it. Assuming I'm going to be in some kind of anticipatory limbo indefinitely is, frankly, stupid. If I quit buying D&D altogether, I'm not going to know what they put out.

Years and years and years ago, TSR did a poll. The vast majority (75%+?) of Dungeon magazine purchasers bought it to read, and never ran anything from it. That's the market WotC has abandoned. Are they wrong to do so? I dunno. Maybe in ten years I'll look back and say WotC was right to drop me as a consumer and pursue a different audience. Maybe D&D will be 3 core books and a few adventure path hardbacks on a Barnes & Nobles bookshelf, having been functionally shuttered after two years.

But if you aren't playing the game right now... you have no momentum. You aren't interested. You aren't in 'Limbo'... you aren't playing the game. Which of course is fine. You don't want to play the game because it doesn't fit your needs. No big deal. But you know what WotC's current policies are-- they've been quite up-front about it. So if you still keep "hanging around" waiting for WotC to catch up to what your expectations for the game are... that's on you. You're putting yourself into 'Limbo' because even though the game isn't what you want it to be (since apparently it looks like you need to have 'X' amount of stuff available before you can consider it a true game you are willing to play)... you also aren't just stopping and going elsewhere.

You can try and blame WotC for that all you want... but it isn't their problem. It's yours. You're making yourself irritated because you won't let go. You seem to just think that if you hang around long enough, WotC will come around. Which... truth be told... is in fact true. At some point, WotC WILL have released enough 5E product to reach this 'X' you have in your head of what is required to warrant playing the game.

The question just comes down to "Do I leave 5E now and come back in five years when I can buy everything I want to play the type of D&D game I want... or do I just make myself miserable by hanging around staring at this pot waiting for it to eventually boil?"

You can answer the question whichever way you want... but just don't expect sympathy from WotC or some of the rest of us if we don't agree with your answer.
 

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