D&D 5E I thought about summoning spells too hard

[1of3]

In real world mythology, people will often give sacrifices to gods/spirits/whatevers while at the same time expecting that traditional sacrifices are enough. Prayer and sacrifice in such cultures are not pleading for divine help, they are more of a contract. So if you offer a goat on the right holidays the spirit in question is supposed to help you.

 

[RealAlHazred]

As far as I know, the 5E rules don't go into much detail on the subject, so it's going to be on the DM to fill in the gaps.

Pretty much this. 5E is deliberately vague so the DM can pick-and-choose his poison.

Conjuration spells involve the transportation of objects and creatures from one location to another. Some spells summon creatures or objects to the caster's side, whereas others allow the caster to teleport to another location. Some conjurations create objects or effects out of nothing.

I'll note that the last sentence refers to "objects" or "effects," but not "creatures" like the previous sentence. I'd still say there're plenty of gameable ideas in either case.

In my Eberron 5E game, there are groups that protest summonings and conjurations as forms of slavery, which was outlawed in most civilized kingdoms. Since I don't have a conjurer PC, it hasn't come up yet, but when it does I'm going to emulate the Occupy protests/protesters to give my campaign versimilitude.

 

[Alzrius]

Personally, I'm a fan of this quote from The Practical Enchanter (p. 105) when it comes to summoning (at least with regards to 3.X/Pathfinder):

Classically, Summoning effects open a gate to an outer plane or other distant location, locate an example of a specified type of creature there, drag it through the gateway, infallibly bind it to obedience, and then send it away again when the spell is complete, despite any intervening dimensional barriers, no matter how powerful.

This seems like a bit much to ask of a first level spell.

In general, we recommend that Summoning spells produce constructs temporarily ensouled by summoned spirits. Summoned entities thus cannot truly die, are bound to limited obedience by constraints built into the body, and cannot bring items or carry them away. They cannot teleport or plane shift unless they are capable of teleporting others along with themselves since the constructed body is not truly a part of them. Similarly, once the body vanishes the spirit departs automatically unless blocked by magic which can affect pure spirits. Finally, since they do not have a true body to anchor their end of the link, they cannot summon other creatures; they would simply be pulled back through themselves.

Any severed parts of a summoned creature will thus vanish as well, neatly eliminating ichor stains and most traces, as well as eliminating any infections, curse of lycanthropy, or similar conditions they would otherwise leave behind.

 

[howandwhy99]

Bottom line, it's up to you, the DM.
Conjure means to cast a spell bringing something into existence. Who knows from where?
Summon means to compel someone to come to you. They do not need to come from a teleport.
Call means telling someone "hey, stop by". There's a chance they won't. And they are not compelled to follow orders upon arrival.

However, in D&D historically I believe Conjure and Summon were terms used interchangeably. If anything, Animals and Items were conjured, Monsters were summoned.

Many of these spells included a teleportation effect, but not all necessarily. Especially when it came to Druids. It's important to remember Teleport had a distance limit. So you don't have to worry about what's available as a caster. You make an educated guess based upon your knowledge of the area at large. Summoning in Hell or on an ocean is a different case than summoning on land. Planar Travel may also be part of the Summon and Calling spells too, it depends on what your calling for. I think undead are out altogether. But then Speak with Dead brings back a spirit for a short time.

What you can do as a DM:
1. Keep your Wilderness Area lists for Wandering Monsters handy. This should include everything populating the area.
2. When a player casts a summoning spell check their location and the distance of the spell, perhaps based on spell level.
3. Reference what they are desiring on the population lists for availability.
4. Alter how many come based on the spells level, monster rating, and availability.

Then you have a creature that actually existed in your game world before it was summoned. They are more than faceless, history-less mooks to die for you. You can talk to them. Learn what they know. Make friends. Bring them back again to learn more about where they returned back to. Etc.

 

[Mistwell]

The mechanics of how magic work have largely been left up to the DM.

In general, I've always interpreted summoning spells as conjuring a spirit version of the creature from the outer planes of some sort. As a spirit, it can't die by normal means - only be banished back to the place where it comes from.

As DM, I exercise the right to treat conjured beings as NPCs. This has _never_ come up in the game but would come up if the PC's conjured a being and then tried to get it to violate its basic nature - say forcing a celestial to commit an act of great evil, or forcing an infernal to serve the cause of good in an overt way. A being conjured to perform an act in gross violation of its nature simply refuses to act.

Part of the reason that this then never comes up, as it tends to force players ahead of time to think about what they want to accomplish before choosing what to summon. This involves then almost no limitation on how the players use the spell, and at the same time preserves my sanity as a DM regarding how the spell works (because forcing a fiend to cooperate is well beyond the ability of a low level spell). Conjured beings show up because they want to, and are getting something out of it (either the opportunity to advance a cause or just the opportunity to commit acts of violence), and not because the spell itself is powerful enough to force them to do so.

I'd be quite willing to have the beings in question be repeat 'customers', but I would not allow you to pre-stocking conjured entities with magical items or gifts. Conjured beings can't take anything with them when they go back to the spirit worlds (otherwise, you could command them to grab someone, and then dismiss them to permanently planeshift away a villain).

I am curious about something (sorry for dragging this a bit off topic). Celebrim I recall at one time you thought 5e was vaporware. What do you think of it, now that the core 3 books are out? Not a dig or anything, just curious if your thinking has changed on this over time or if it's still essentially where it was back in January?

 

[Celebrim]

I am curious about something (sorry for dragging this a bit off topic). Celebrim I recall at one time you thought 5e was vaporware. What do you think of it, now that the core 3 books are out? Not a dig or anything, just curious if your thinking has changed on this over time or if it's still essentially where it was back in January?

I think that for as ambitious of goals as they had, they came up with a surprisingly good set of rules, but I still think that the game is unlikely to be very successful for all that. The brand has become too fractured and there isn't likely to be a massive resurgence in PnP play anytime soon unless something happens in the wider culture. They've got a skeleton staff left for the brand and no new products planned that I've heard of. We'll see what they announce in a few months, but unless sales are very good I don't expect anything like the support seen for prior editions.

Sad, because its a lot better product IMO than 4e.