I thought back stab was a full action?

[ThirdWizard]

1. In 3.0, someone who was making an unarmed strike without IUS against a target they would have flanked had they been using, say, a dagger, was not considered flanking. This is because someone who is using only an unarmed strike without IUS does not threaten any squares.

This, in turn, means you can't have a good, stand-up, knock-down bar brawl, and bar brawls are nothing if not a staple of D&D.

I think if that were the case there would be better ways to change the rules. I can't recall any time that a one of my PCs was brawling in a bar and another trying to kill the same enemy. Okay, so there was that one time, but he still claims it was an accident... It was funny when he took the dead body to the authorities as a "living" bounty...

 

[ThirdWizard]

And that basically sums up why I avoid these types of discussions. The smug personal attacks from people who think they have found a clever new loophole to abuse.

It's not a loophole, its the rules. =/

Not that I defend the personal attacks, even if they were just meant to be humorous (which I think they were).

I don't think you can just dismiss this as rules lawyering, though. That really does look like the intent of the rules. They did purposefully change them, after all.

 

[Lasher Dragon]

Just to add a little fuel to the fire....

In our games, if a rogue has far shot, he can get flank from a melee-type from 45 feet away, and get sneak attack. Tends to get pretty nasty with rapid shot hehehe

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

How can it be a personal attack? You're a Rules Monkey?

 

[dcollins]

From "Rules of the Game" at Wizards.com, March 2004 (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a)

To flank an opponent, two allies must be on opposite sides of that opponent, and they both must threaten the opponent (Chapter 8 in the Player's Handbook has some handy diagrams that explain flanking). You threaten an opponent when you can make an armed melee attack against that opponent....

You can flank with any melee weapon, including a reach weapon, but you cannot flank with a ranged weapon.

It's a widely known rule in 3.0 and 3.5 that you cannot flank with a ranged weapon (core rules, FAQ, Rules of the Game). You guys trying to split hairs by finding somewhat weakly worded language in the PHB are basically going to need one of the 3.5 designers to declare their intent to change it, due to overwhelming evidence against you.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The problem, dcollins, is that the Rules of the Game article are absolutely correct - for 3.0, where the Flanking text specifically stated:

If a character is making a melee attack against an opponent, and an ally directly opposite the character is threatening the opponent, the character and the character's ally flank the opponent.

Unfortunately, that first part was removed in the 3.5 version.

Therefore, while it *is* widely known that in 3.0 you can't flank with a ranged weapon, that ruling no longer applies in 3.5 because they changed the rules.

Therefore, the RotG article is in error when it cites its sources.

Or, at least, it's expanding the rules beyond what they say - which is generally known as a "House Rule."

 

[ThirdWizard]

From "Rules of the Game" at Wizards.com, March 2004 (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a)



It's a widely known rule in 3.0 and 3.5 that you cannot flank with a ranged weapon (core rules, FAQ, Rules of the Game). You guys trying to split hairs by finding somewhat weakly worded language in the PHB are basically going to need one of the 3.5 designers to declare their intent to change it, due to overwhelming evidence against you.

The Rules of the Game are in direct opposition to the RAW. Are you arguing that the Rules of the Game are erratta?

 

[Arkhandus]

As Thanee says, you can make a ranged sneak attack by simply attacking while invisible, or during the surprise round where opponents who haven't acted yet are considered flat-footed.

You cannot flank an opponent with a ranged weapon or ranged attack. Read the rogue class' description of Sneak Attack and the Combat chapter of the Player's Handbook or the System Reference Document. You cannot sneak attack just any flanked creature, you can only sneak attack a creature you are flanking personally, by being in melee reach (your own; it doesn't matter if the foe has longer reach, only your own reach matters for purposes of you flanking someone). You CAN, however, sneak attack a foe with a ranged weapon if that foe is currently denied a Dex bonus to AC against your attack, such as when you're invisible (if the foe can see you invisible, then the foe isn't denied its Dex bonus to AC).

Flanking does not deny the opponent Dex to AC. Flanking only means that you get +2 on attack rolls versus the flanked opponent(s), and for rogues it means that the opponent(s) being flanked is/are now susceptible to sneak attacks.

Sneak attack applies any time you flank an opponent, and also applies any time your opponent is denied a Dexterity bonus to AC. If your rogue flanks an opponent, they can deal Sneak Attack damage (in 3.5 Edition only) with every melee attack they make against the opponent they flank. If your opponent is somehow denied a Dex bonus to AC against all your attacks at a given time, your rogue can do the same. However, most effects that deny a Dex bonus to AC only last for 1 actual attempted attack.

Remember that Invisibility ends immediately after you make one attack against anyone. Improved Invisibility ends immediately after the second attack you make against anyone; it doesn't have to be a second attack in the same round, just the second attack you try during the Improved Invisibility's entire duration. During a surprise round, you normally only get a single partial action (which normally doesn't allow a full-attack action, nor use of two weapons), and that's only if you did the surprising.

Anything that isn't vulnerable to critical hits, such as Undead, Constructs, Plants, and objects, is also NEVER vulnerable to sneak attacks.

All of these are rules you will find in the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, or System Reference Document.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Arkhandus: Good summary, except I have one question:

If your rogue flanks an opponent, they can deal Sneak Attack damage (in 3.5 Edition only) with every melee attack they make against the opponent they flank.

Why the "(in 3.5 Edition only)" qualifier?

I'm aware of no changes between 3.0 and 3.5 that would warrant such.

 

[Arkhandus]

I believe I recall seeing something in the 3.0 Player's Handbook, or possibly the 3.0 online FAQ at wizards.com, that said you can only use sneak attack once per round in 3.0. I may be misremembering that tidbit, but I'm quite certain I saw it in one of those three sources. I'll try checking my books and the FAQ to make sure.