D&D 5E I thought WotC was removing biological morals?

[Scribe]

How does that 50.1% work out for you? Serious question

I just stick with what's in the book as the 'usual' or 'most often' type. Meaning I use the alignment set up in the book I paid for.

Unless I decide I need to change it.

So rather than a setting that actively promotes the design principles, morality, and world view that you think I thing we should all accept, we should use a setting that actively promotes the design principles, morality, and world view that you want everyone accept

Not quite. I want a defined thing (ASI or Alignment) which is open to change, and even has officially published settings to demonstrate that yes, you too can change said defined thing. The important part is, there is the defined thing.

Tell me, what upsets you so much about the idea of removing racial or species-wide alignments?

I feel the removal of said things (ASI and Alignment) renders the existence of Fantasy species as unnecessary. They may as well be Humans.

At an even higher level, I find it ridiculous to essentially declare foundational aspects (different species have innate advantages, disadvantages, and differing morality when compared to the baseline Human) of Fantasy, racist.

OK. And? Are you saying that everyone should have orcs like you do? That the MM should be written for you and ignore all other possibilities?

No, I'm saying just as with Eberron, one can make Orcs, or anything else they like, slightly or very (Eberron) different than what the MM declares as true (most of the time).

Why?

Because it's boring, and they may as well just be humans.

 

[Faolyn]

Well we do know that some devils can have children. In the succubus entry: "Fiendish Offspring. Succubi and incubi can reproduce with one another to spawn more of their kind."

Well, 'cubi--although I like the term concubus, now that I've learned of it--are neither demons nor devils this edition. It may very well be that for fiends like them (and hellhounds and other such off-brand fiends), they have to reproduce because they aren't tied to a particular plane in the same as demons, devils, and yugoloths are, and thus can't use that plane's evil energies to make more of their kind.

 

[Scribe]

It's a value judgement based on the opinions of the person making it so it is absurd for the game to try objectively define it especially for creatures that are not even close to human.

Exactly, so what is Alignment really, if not how Humans perceived something?

Are Orcs Evil to Orcs? Are Gold Dragons Good to Trolls?

 

[DarkCrisis]

Of course I can use my imagination. That's why don't use racial alignments in the first place. Every single time I decide to include a creature, I use my imagination to figure out what the creature is like and why the PCs are encountering them.

The question is, why are the orcs your PCs encounter generally evil? Could it be because the book says that orcs are evil and you've decided that there's plenty of good orcs, but they're all off-screen where nobody will ever see them? If so, how is that any different than saying that all orcs are evil?

Because those Orcs only exist for the 1 battle against the PCs. Why they are there and who they are at home doesn’t matter. Orc guards in a dungeon room are just Orc Guards in a dungeon room.

Do you question every Mobile you come across ina Zelda game? Why is this Slime attacking my Dragon Warrior? Who is this Cactaur menacing my Light Warriors?

it doesn’t matter. They are merely obstacles to be over come just like a locked door or a pit trap or a weapon smith to deal with.

They didn’t exist before the dungeon/town and will be forgotten about 2 minutes later. They are just NPCs to encounter and then move on. I’m not DMing to tel an NPCs story I’m here to help tell the PCs.

 

[Faolyn]

I just stick with what's in the book as the 'usual' or 'most often' type. Meaning I use the alignment set up in the book I paid for.

Unless I decide I need to change it.

So does this mean you refuse to play non-D&D RPGs that don't have alignments?

Not quite. I want a defined thing (ASI or Alignment) which is open to change, and even has officially published settings to demonstrate that yes, you too can change said defined thing. The important part is, there is the defined thing.

And not including an alignment means that you can't change it to have an alignment?

I feel the removal of said things (ASI and Alignment) renders the existence of Fantasy species as unnecessary. They may as well be Humans.

So you feel that the only difference between a human and an orc is that humans are any alignment and orcs are chaotic evil?

At an even higher level, I find it ridiculous to essentially declare foundational aspects (different species have innate advantages, disadvantages, and differing morality when compared to the baseline Human) of Fantasy, racist.

This makes it sound like you're saying you are knowingly running racist games but don't want to be called out for it or that you don't care enough about racism to make sure it's not included in your game, but because the books include alignments, you can just say, "hey, I didn't make them Evil; that's what the book says!"

I don't believe that's what you meant to say or what you actually think, but it's really what it sounds like to me.

 

[Faolyn]

Because those Orcs only exist for the 1 battle against the PCs. Why they are there and who they are at home doesn’t matter. Orc guards in a dungeon room are just Orc Guards in a dungeon room.

...

Of course it matters. What if the players decide they want to negotiate with the orcs? What if there's actually a very good reason why the orcs are guarding the dungeon?

Do you question every Mobile you come across ina Zelda game? Why is this Slime attacking my Dragon Warrior? Who is this Cactaur menacing my Light Warriors?

I have no idea what mobiles, slimes, and cactaurs are like in Zelda. But I wasn't aware that you had the ability to negotiate with, outsmart, or sneak around such things in that game.

it doesn’t matter. They are merely obstacles to be over come just like a locked door or a pit trap or a weapon smith to deal with.

Or, y'know, you could have an actual reason for why the PCs are fighting these creatures beyond "because they're there."

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Because those Orcs only exist for the 1 battle against the PCs. Why they are there and who they are at home doesn’t matter. Orc guards in a dungeon room are just Orc Guards in a dungeon room.

Do you question every Mobile you come across ina Zelda game? Why is this Slime attacking my Dragon Warrior? Who is this Cactaur menacing my Light Warriors?

it doesn’t matter. They are merely obstacles to be over come just like a locked door or a pit trap or a weapon smith to deal with.

They didn’t exist before the dungeon/town and will be forgotten about 2 minutes later. They are just NPCs to encounter and then move on. I’m not DMing to tel an NPCs story I’m here to help tell the PCs.

To me the strength of tabletop RPGs is that you can go deeper than that. As you note, if I want just mindlessly hack things, I can play video games. Now this is not to say that every raider or bandit needs to have super deep motivations, but they should have some motivations.

 

[DarkCrisis]

...

Of course it matters. What if the players decide they want to negotiate with the orcs? What if there's actually a very good reason why the orcs are guarding the dungeon?


I have no idea what mobiles, slimes, and cactaurs are like in Zelda. But I wasn't aware that you had the ability to negotiate with, outsmart, or sneak around such things in that game.


Or, y'know, you could have an actual reason for why the PCs are fighting these creatures beyond "because they're there."

Then I’ll use my make believe skills to instantly come with an idea. But yes typically those Orcs whole reason for being is simply because “they are there.”

If it makes you feel better to write out the lineage of every random mook your PCs may or may not encounter, well more power to you. For me some times a rose is just a rose, or in this case a random orc guard is just a random orc guard.

 

[Scribe]

And not including an alignment means that you can't change it to have an alignment?

No, but D&D has alignment, I like Alignment conceptually, I like the Gods, and the Planes, which revolve around alignment as a system underpinning the cosmology. So I use it, in D&D.

So does this mean you refuse to play non-D&D RPGs that don't have alignments?

No, because those settings do not have the same system and cosmology or mythology. Other games don't have alignment as a core component.

So you feel that the only difference between a human and an orc is that humans are any alignment and orcs are chaotic evil?

No, they also have different rules for character generation, and special rules to further differentiate between them. I want more of those things, not less.

If I'm playing an Orc, I want it to be fundamentally different in experience, from playing a Gnome, which would again be different from an Aasimar, which again would be different from a Lizardman.

I want there to be hard, crunch differences, built into the game systems.

Again, I like systems, like Alignment.

I don't believe that's what you meant to say or what you actually think, but it's really what it sounds like to me.

If you believe me finding the belief that Fantasy is racist at its root to be a ridiculous position, to be racist, then I suppose you can just join the few others on the forum that have insinuated I'm a racist.

Because no, I do not believe having ASI or Alignment being generalized across most/many/'usually of x' a species racist, when the books outright tell you you can change it, and official settings are published to prove the opposite.

 

[Faolyn]

Then I’ll use my make believe skills to instantly come with an idea. But yes typically those Orcs whole reason for being is simply because “they are there.”

If it makes you feel better to write out the lineage of every random mook your PCs may or may not encounter, well more power to you. For me some times a rose is just a rose, or in this case a random orc guard is just a random orc guard.

I don't need to write out the lineage of every mook, but I need a motivation for this guy to be killable. If an orc is just standing there doing his job and you kill him, and that is literally all there is to this orc, then you are not the good guy for killing him.