I tried the 4 player standard, what a mess...

[Mark CMG]

Aside from the notes above regarding 3.0 vs 3.5 and CR being a guide, I think it is worth noting also that tactics dictate not getting in reach of anything that primarily is skewed toward pounding you into a pizza. The worst possible tactic to use on something that mainly fights hand to hand is is physically much stronger than you is to close to melee. If it closes with you, well, then you do what you have to do. But spells that blind/entangle, etc and ranged weapons are the key to such encounters. Did the players take this approach in any of the tests?

 

[Twowolves]

Entangle and longbows (or one lucky Sleep spell) will kill an ogre at 1st level. Under no circumstances do you melee an ogre below say 4th level, unless you are an AC optimized tank. IMO, that is. A rogue with Rapid Shot shooting at a flat-footed ogre isn't as useless as some would claim, but yeah, I certainly wouldn't consider a ranger a "front-line fighter", nor would I use him in melee with the ogre at first level!

Now, having said that, in 1st ed (hundreds of years ago), with myself playing a druid and my friend playing a ranger, we successfully killed a troll at level 1, with a combo of Entangle, a longbow, Faerie Fire, and flaming oil.

 

[twofalls]

Well I just returned from church where I shared the posts I'd read with two of my players who attend with me. Essentially we agree the CR system is broken and that what really works better is my GMing the way I always have and ignoring the rules I dislike. It works for us, and I have thier trust well enough to get away with it.

We have decided that the poster who declared the CR system in 3.0 to be hopelessly broken is likely in the right, and I personally don't feel that 3.5 is enough of an improvment to justify my gaming dollars.

To be fair, to be able to claim the CR system as being broken I'd have to run many other tests wtih different creature combitations, etc, but this isn't a scientific study, its just a little test we ran as a group.

So its back to eyeballing the game and entertaining my friends! Thanks for all your input.

 

[Mark CMG]

You should grab the CR adjustments from the SRD, at the least, and take to heart having a discussion with your players about not closing with obvious physical threats. As someone with three and a half decades of DMing, and plenty of eyeballing skill, I think you'll continue to run into problems without taking a bit more from this thread than just that the system has a few bugs.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Now, having said that, in 1st ed (hundreds of years ago), with myself playing a druid and my friend playing a ranger, we successfully killed a troll at level 1, with a combo of Entangle, a longbow, Faerie Fire, and flaming oil.

How did Faerie Fire work in 1e? (And was Entangle any different?)

To be fair, to be able to claim the CR system as being broken I'd have to run many other tests wtih different creature combitations, etc, but this isn't a scientific study, its just a little test we ran as a group.

I think you're over-reacting a bit here, but it's your game.

 

[WhatGravitas]

You should grab the CR adjustments from the SRD, at the least, and take to heart having a discussion with your players about not closing with obvious physical threats.

Web-Friendly SRD, Wizards' SRD is a rtf. You should, at least, use the monsters from there, because not only some CRs are bad, but other monsters suffer from a severe glassjaw, like the demons: While potent... they die much to fast, making it more of an initiative game, who get nuke the other side first. In 3.5, they have a bit more staying power.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I don't know the module in question, but I guess I can assume that bypassing the ogre isn't an option?

I was wondering the same thing. Some things are just tougher than the pcs. That's part of the fun. When entering an area we'd been at a few levels earlier, the first thing we think of is "Hey, remember that bigss ogre that kicked our asses? Let's go make mincemeat out of him!"

 

[Vocenoctum]

I'm with Mr. SeveredHead, here - the CR system does not perform as advertised. All nitpicks about how his players played, what characters they chose, etc., are irrelevant - the CR system claimed to be a guideline for balancing encounters, any DM, any players.

Right, it's a guideline, rather than a rule. The system is less accurate at very low levels (a CR of double or triple the average level isn't really the same as +1, but at low levels that's how it looks) and at really high levels (since abilities fracture quickly when there's a lot of them).

Experienced DMs hardly need such a guideline, so emphasis should have been on making the system workable for novice DMs, even with a party of 13-year-old newbies throwing characters together in the back of the cafeteria with one set of dice, one set of books, abysmal luck, and a burning desire to try out the rules. It does not perform this function.

Just as the Magic Item Creation guidelines don't give a real formula for every magic item you might want. D&D's variety makes all such judgements a case of figuring, and CR is no different. Giants tend to be High HP/ High Damage slugfests, that means vs light parties it will be tougher.

I think the test was a fair one and the CR system as written for 3.0 flunked. I suspect that a similar test for the 3.5 system would, too, as a perusal of the rules gave us no indication that the designers had figured out what went wrong the first time.

The system flunked in that it cannot prepare for every encounter possible. Since it was not geared towards that, I don't see it as a failure.

The complaint about CR, Magic Item Creation, Spell Creation or just about everything in D&D not being exact is more directable towards the fact the system is set up in a way that doesn't facilitate such systems. Finding cases where the system fails kind of avoids the fact it's not a Rule.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I was wondering the same thing. Some things are just tougher than the pcs. That's part of the fun. When entering an area we'd been at a few levels earlier, the first thing we think of is "Hey, remember that bigss ogre that kicked our asses? Let's go make mincemeat out of him!"

http://www.goodman-games.com/5001Rpreview.php

Module in question.

It seems the players are specifically sent to fight said Ogre. I'd be interested in the "tight cave" mechanics they used to balance the encounter.

 

[Crothian]

http://www.goodman-games.com/5001Rpreview.php

Module in question.

It seems the players are specifically sent to fight said Ogre. I'd be interested in the "tight cave" mechanics they used to balance the encounter.

This is not an easy 1st level adventure. The DCC's are usually pretty challenging but this is a tough one even for them. I imagine that is also part of the problem.