I tried the 4 player standard, what a mess...

[haakon1]

I don't know what tactics your players tried, but the ogre is a classical "run away" critter. With its movement of 30 ft., it's not too fast, so the best (and only really good) way to deal with it, is keep running, keep shooting.

Indeed. A party where all four die is a party that stuck around at least 3 round too long.

It's a bit like running a WWII adventure, having the platoon fire a bazooka at the Panther IV's frontal armor, and deciding it's unfair that it "can't" be destroyed. It of course can, it just requires better tactics (run away, run away and call an airstrike, get it in the bottom, rear, or treads instead of the frontal armor, etc.) rather than standing up straight to die instantly.

To put it another way, the problem here was a combination of 1st level characters and 1st level players . . . a seasoned NPC guide or tavern dweller to tell them what a ogre was and how it torn up a whole village militia back 12 seasons ago, yadda yadda, might have saved their lives.

But that is also the much maligned lethality of low-level D&D - IMHO, D&D starts to become fun around 3rd+ level, because then you can withstand more than one hit (others call the region from 6th to around 10th the "sweet spot", where D&D is heroic, but has not arrived in teleport-überbuff-and-crazy-magic, that some dislike).

1st & 2nd level D&D is great fun, as it's a great adventure where death lies behind any false moves. It actually requires more talented and daring play than higher level ubermunchkin build-playing.

The important point is: CR is a good eye-balling, but in the end, you have to look at your monsters individually. Your party was a bit weak on the frontline side, so a big hitter is naturally far harder - know your party, CR is only a rough guideline.

Nod, a ranger is a lot weaker than a fighter, barbarian, or paladin, among other reasons because they tend to hang back and don't take the meatshield role. A party with no meatshield is in trouble.

 

[haakon1]

Now, having said that, in 1st ed (hundreds of years ago), with myself playing a druid and my friend playing a ranger, we successfully killed a troll at level 1, with a combo of Entangle, a longbow, Faerie Fire, and flaming oil.

Caves of Chaos, by any chance?

I had a 1st level party (8 PC's) take on a troll under 3e rules in the ol' Caves of Chaos, and they survived -- less one PC when the others ran for their lives. Luckily, the troll didn't eat the unconscious PC, and the goblins later did a prisoner exchange, so all turned out mostly OK. :\

 

[Twowolves]

Caves of Chaos, by any chance?

Nope, this was 1st ed, not OD&D. DM's homebrew world, one he had been running for years.

IIRC, the troll had moved into a house on a river where the river ferry operator and his family lived. We "persuaded" it to come outside to us by setting it on fire.

 

[satori01]

First off, 1st level characters are a bit wonky, an Ogre is a definitive run away monster unless you can ambush it. The stability given by starting people off at even 2nd level is amazing.

As a DM I prefer a group of 5 people. That 5th person adds quite a bit of synergy, no matter what class taken, and imho really lets you ratchet up the difficulty, while preserving speed of play.

My group recently hit 10 people playing, and at high levels it is just too much, in part because quite a few of them are new to 3.5, in part because there are too many damn people.

4-7 is the optimal range.

 

[Felix]

I'm with Mr. SeveredHead, here - the CR system does not perform as advertised.

The CR system performs very well on average.

There's simply no way a d20 random rolling system can come up with a way to make sure that every encounter is exactly equally balanced; the system cannot control if the ogre, who has a miserable reflex save, rolls two 18s when it meets the druid's entangle.

That being said, there was an improvement between 3.0 and 3.5's CR system. Not suprisingly of course: it was an innovation for 3e, and 3.5 had three years of broad additional playtesting. So the CR 3 ogre was discovered as such.

Naturally, conditions will change CRs: an ogre is easier to kill in the open than in a dungeon with fewer lines of sight; kobolds expecting adventurers will have better prepared ambushes and traps; orc barbarians using excellent group tactics will be harder to kill than if they free-for-alled it. But the CR system gives a good on average starting point for DMs so that when they alter the encounter one way or another, they know what to expect, on average.

twofalls, your group meleed with a meatgrinder: they died when they allowed that to happen. Yes, the ogre is under CR'd in 3.0, but then that's one reason for the 3.5 revision. The 4-PC party works fine.

 

[twofalls]

I find it hilarious the range of assumptions that are tacked on when little to no information is initially given to support them, but I suppose that is the nature of public postings.

The four players in question are vetran gamers, very experienced with many systems and all very bright and educated adults. I've likely been running games longer than many posters here have been alive, not that either of those facts makes us defacto experts in all things game related, but neither is anyone here failing in this scenario due to lack of experience or ability.

I stated earlier that the CR system is a failure, I didn't add "for me". My mistake. Obviously some posters here feel that it has merit and usefulness for them.

To answer the question posted about the ability to dodge the encounter and continue on, no, the entrance to the adventure is neatly funnelled right through the Ogres den. Of course that is easily changed in play by simply editing the map and adding an alternate route into the cave complex... but we decided to see if the Ogre really could be beaten, hence the repeated attempts.

The mechanics used to represent the stalagtites and mites in the cave were very simple and favored the PC's if they used medium or small weapons. A flat -2 to hit using any large weapon, and I gave half cover to anyone subjected to a missile attack (which was not part of the encounter as written).

To the person who pointed out that by giving each person of my party a special item to start the game with, you are right, that would skew the CR system in favor of the PC's... this was not meant to be an exhaustive examination of the CR system, we were just playing around with it a bit, and it failed us in this situaition for a host of reasons that the posters here have been kind to point out.

Again I thank you all for your ideas and observations.

 

[kenobi65]

I stated earlier that the CR system is a failure, I didn't add "for me". My mistake. Obviously some posters here feel that it has merit and usefulness for them.

I think part of the reason for the reaction you've gotten (particularly since your post yesterday) is that, from what you're written, you and your group had, fundamentally, one encounter that led to a TPK (based, in part, on a known issue with that monster's CR in 3.0), and this has led to you conclude that the entire CR system is a failure.

That's like watching a baseball player have one poor at-bat and deciding that he's no good. Well, maybe he isn't, but you should have a few more cases to view before you make that decision.

And, based on what you describe in the encounter, it's entirely possible that the environmental circumstances might have warranted an EL boost for that encounter (but, which, it sounds like, wasn't factored in). It's beginning to sound to me like at least part of the issue is with the adventure, moreso than with the CR system.

 

[Raven Crowking]

And, based on what you describe in the encounter, it's entirely possible that the environmental circumstances might have warranted an EL boost for that encounter (but, which, it sounds like, wasn't factored in).

Why would you boost the EL for environmental factors that favour the PCs overall?


RC

 

[Mark CMG]

One of the issues brought up before, the lack of a front line fighter with a high AC might raise the EL by as much as one factor.

To answer the question posted about the ability to dodge the encounter and continue on, no, the entrance to the adventure is neatly funnelled right through the Ogres den. Of course that is easily changed in play by simply editing the map and adding an alternate route into the cave complex... but we decided to see if the Ogre really could be beaten, hence the repeated attempts.

Terrain that funnels toward a heavy combat might raise the EL by as much as one factor. Not only is the fight unavoidable, it can only be approached from a single direction.

The mechanics used to represent the stalagtites and mites in the cave were very simple and favored the PC's if they used medium or small weapons. A flat -2 to hit using any large weapon, (. . .)

Only being able to use low damage melee weapons against a high hp opponent might raise the EL by as much as one factor.

(. . .) and I gave half cover to anyone subjected to a missile attack (which was not part of the encounter as written).

Giving built in cover to a creature against whom ranged weapons are the best offensive weapons might raise the EL by as much as one factor.


To summarize, the Ogre's CR 2 in the 3.0 books was rightly revised in 3.5 to CR 3. That starts it off as an EL 3 with a four person standard party. There are four aspects of this situation that might raise the EL by as much as one factor each.

I do not think in this case it is a matter of the system being broken for you or for anyone. I get that you meant that when you suggested it was broken. I just feel you may have not calculated things as well as you might have done. I do not think that eyeballing things would have changed the factors outlined above.

 

[Mark CMG]

Why would you boost the EL for environmental factors that favour the PCs overall?

They do not favor the PCs in this situation as outlined in my previous post.