D&D 5E Idea: Fighters can use any fighter manuever with reduced die

[Stalker0]

One concern I have with maneuvers is the same one people have with spellcasters and spells....you just never seem to get enough of them.

While I like the idea of maneuvers that help me jump and such....when you have only so many slots and there are maneuvers like parry out there....are those other maneuvers going to see any use?


So just as wizards are getting rituals to help fill that gap, here is an idea for Fighters (or all the martial classes).

Improvised Maneuvers: A fighter can improvise any maneuver on the fighter list that they currently do not know. When using such a maneuver, they must spend at least 3 expertise die. Subtract 2 expertise die from the maneuver roll.

General Maneuvers: Some maneuvers are generic enough to be included in standard fighter training. When improvising these maneuvers, the fighter need only spend 2 expertise dice. Subtract 1 expertise die from the maneuver roll.


So a maneuver like vault could be done by any fighter of high enough level. If we make it a general maneuver then improvising it isn't too difficult.

 

[fjw70]

I would just prefer to give them A LOT more maneuvers. Something like starting with 4-6 and getting 4-6 more through leveling to 10th.

 

[ren1999]

I have an idea where you're going with this. You want players to try out maneuvers to see if they like them and add variety to the game. I like where your idea is going.

But what about players with only 1 expertise die because they are low level?

 

[ren1999]

I would just prefer to give them A LOT more maneuvers. Something like starting with 4-6 and getting 4-6 more through leveling to 10th.

I was thinking 3 starting maneuvers and a total of 10 more maneuvers spread out through levels 2 to 30.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Giving fighters more maneuvers or letting them improvise them (badly) is a two-edged sword (npi). The greater the total universe of maneuvers a single fighter can get access to, the less each individual fighter is differentiated. The fewer maneuvers you let each individual fighter access, the less versatile, adaptable, and competent they become.

It's a thorny problem, and a reason that maneuvers are not nearly the panacea they've been trotted out as. They don't really address the failure of fighters to measure up to casters when it really matters. In 4e, where fighters also got dailies, that disparity wasn't so great (it was still there, casters got a much greater breadth of abilities), and, if 5e were to go to a dice-pool mechanic for casters instead of Vancian, it wouldn't be a problem. But, as long as we have disparate mechanics for each class, we're going to be running into issues like this.


Perhaps fighters could be given a second pool of dice (Hero dice? Fighter Action dice?) that could be spent like ED, but regenerate much more slowly (per encounter or per day)? They could stack those dice on their regular maneuvers, or use them to tap a 'higher tier' of better maneuvers, or maneuvers they don't know (haven't completely mastered). That would give fighters greater versatility without having to sacrifice effectiveness, and some potential for the sort of 'peak power' that actually wins a character a bit of spotlight time now and then. It'd also give them something beyond things that everyone else also gets (which ED are rapidly becoming).

 

[fjw70]

I was thinking 3 starting maneuvers and a total of 10 more maneuvers spread out through levels 2 to 30.

That is way too slow IMO. By level 30 a fighter should know every maneuver. I don't want to play for months before I get a bunch of options. I want a bunch of options to start with and to get more as I level.

 

[fjw70]

Giving fighters more maneuvers or letting them improvise them (badly) is a two-edged sword (npi). The greater the total universe of maneuvers a single fighter can get access to, the less each individual fighter is differentiated. The fewer maneuvers you let each individual fighter access, the less versatile, adaptable, and competent they become.

It's a thorny problem, and a reason that maneuvers are not nearly the panacea they've been trotted out as. They don't really address the failure of fighters to measure up to casters when it really matters. In 4e, where fighters also got dailies, that disparity wasn't so great (it was still there, casters got a much greater breadth of abilities), and, if 5e were to go to a dice-pool mechanic for casters instead of Vancian, it wouldn't be a problem. But, as long as we have disparate mechanics for each class, we're going to be running into issues like this.


Perhaps fighters could be given a second pool of dice (Hero dice? Fighter Action dice?) that could be spent like ED, but regenerate much more slowly (per encounter or per day)? They could stack those dice on their regular maneuvers, or use them to tap a 'higher tier' of better maneuvers, or maneuvers they don't know (haven't completely mastered). That would give fighters greater versatility without having to sacrifice effectiveness, and some potential for the sort of 'peak power' that actually wins a character a bit of spotlight time now and then. It'd also give them something beyond things that everyone else also gets (which ED are rapidly becoming).

I don't see any double edged swords. Maybe it's just me but when I play a PC I don't really care what everyone else is doing (unless it impedes my fun). If the fighter across the table shares a lot of the same maneuvers as me, why the heck should I care?

 

[Tony Vargas]

If the fighter across the table shares a lot of the same maneuvers as me, why the heck should I care?

Differentiating characters seems to be important to a lot of fans. I agree that it doesn't always make tons of sense. Why should you care if your fighter and someone else's wizard both have 2 daily powers, especially considering they're entirely different powers? I don't know, but some people don't merely care, they're violently put off by it. :shrug: You'd think that two fighters having exactly the same set of abilities would be even worse, but, they are just fighters...

 

[MortalPlague]

By level 30 a fighter should know every maneuver.

I strongly disagree. This makes all fighters feel more and more similar as they level up. Spellcasters don't come close to knowing every spell by the time they hit 30th... It also leads to one of the problems of high level play in the past; option paralysis.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Spellcasters don't come close to knowing every spell by the time they hit 30th... It also leads to one of the problems of high level play in the past; option paralysis.

Actually, divine casters did (in 3.x & classic D&D, and, it seems in 5e so far), in effect, 'know' every spell on their list. Once they get to the top spell level, that's it, they're all "the same" in that sense. Wizards have a list of known spells, but it can be pretty large - much larger than the list of 'obvious best' and outright broken spells that you'd be stupid not to use.