ideas for building a dragon killing druid (needed for backstory)

two said:
If the dragon decides to sleep at the bottom of a lake, great. Attack it with giant crocodiles at some point in the night. Or just wait for it to come out. Whatever. It can't stay underwater all day and night. And the druid can have fun with underwater summons.

And how does the druid know where the dragon is? Allmighty druid intuition?
If the dragon razes the land, and settles himself in the middle of a bare 200' circle... Wonderful. The dragon is asking for lightning bolt, and will get it via "Call Lightning Storm," range is 800 feet for the little birdy in the sky. Plenty of line-of-sight after all.

And why should the dragon raze a complete 200ft circle bare of all vegetation?
The dragon would destroy the trees, and certainly not only in a 200 ft circle but much farther.
The battle takes place in a swamp, not in a forest. there aren't that many living trees there where the druid can hide.
Also assaulting the lair is also hard for the druid, because he has nowhere to flee in there.

And the dragon can easily change the roles, withdrawing at first for some days and then activly hunt the druid.
The druid can't hide forever and when unprepared is a easy target for a dragon.

Can a druid kill a equal CR dragon? Yes, he isn't called the most powerfull (or overpowered by some people) class for nothing. (If the dragon is weak and has not many caster level. Try this tricks here with a steel dragon and the druid has no chance). Is it 100% that the druid wins? Hell no.
 
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You know, this discussion might be more fruitful if people read each other's posts...
Derren said:
And how does the druid know where the dragon is? Allmighty druid intuition?
As someone already mentioned, druids can talk to animals. And in a swamp, there's bound to be a toad, or crocodile, or fish, or lizard that has seen the dragon sleeping. Not only that, a druid can easily choose a swamp-dwelling critter as his animal companion.
The battle takes place in a swamp, not in a forest. there aren't that many living trees there where the druid can hide.
There are many swamps that have a lot of trees. I'm not sure where this "aren't many trees in the swamp" idea is coming from. Some swamps are mostly barren. Many are not.

Edit to add: Have you seen The Princess Bride? Think of the Fire Swamp. :p
And the dragon can easily change the roles, withdrawing at first for some days and then activly hunt the druid.
How? The dragon doesn't have Track. And even if he did, a 10th-level druid can't be tracked. That's what Trackless Step (Ex) does.
Can a druid kill a equal CR dragon? Yes, he isn't called the most powerfull (or overpowered by some people) class for nothing.
I agree. I definitely see the druid as borderline overpowered, but that's not a discussion for this thread. :p
(If the dragon is weak and has not many caster level. Try this tricks here with a steel dragon and the druid has no chance).
Well, sure. The druid would lose against a prismatic dragon too. But what we're talking about here is an adult black dragon.
Is it 100% that the druid wins? Hell no.
Maybe only 99%. :p
 
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Lord Pendragon said:
You know, this discussion might be more fruitful if people read each other's posts...As someone already mentioned, druids can talk to animals. And in a swamp, there's bound to be a toad, or crocodile, or fish, or lizard that has seen the dragon sleeping.

And this Int 2 animal gives the druid exact direction and GPS coordinates? But the animal first has to swim all the way from the dragon to the druid who is very far away in safety.
How likely is that?
Other than the animal companion the animals won't help the druid much.
There are many swamps that have a lot of trees. I'm not sure where this "aren't many trees in the swamp" idea is coming from. Some swamps are mostly barren. Many are not.

if the dragon is finished with its rage, the swamp is barren.[/quote][

How? The dragon doesn't have Track. And even if he did, a 10th-level druid can't be tracked. That's what Trackless Step (Ex) does.[/quote]

The druid has to sleep somewhere. Despite all the nature abilities, druids are as fragile as other humans when it comes to weather. Heat, Cold, all harms the druid. He needs a fire to cook his meals (or does a swamp has many berries for the druid to eat even before he got venom imunity?). Also druids have no divine health so unless he wants to cast remove disease after every heavy rain he better has a dwelling where he'd spend the levels before he could cast 3rd level spells.
Also his equipment will also suffer when constantly exposed to the swamp.
And why should the druid hide? After he chased away the dragon, there is no threat in his swamp.
The druid would lose against a prismatic dragon too.

The adult Steel dragon is only CR 8. But the steel dragons CRs are really screwed.

The whole fight depends (as always in D&D) on the equipment. If the dragon has some good anti magic items, the druid has a serious problem. If not the druid has a clear advantage.

A real cunning dragon might, when he can hit the druid one times, sunder the misteltoe.

What action is it to transport from one tree to another? If it takes a action the druid runs the risk that the dragon destroys the tree while he is inside, instantly killing the druid. (Or the dragon might ready an action for it)
 
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And this Int 2 animal gives the druid exact direction and GPS coordinates? But the animal first has to swim all the way from the dragon to the druid who is very far away in safety.
How likely is that?
Very. Something like coming across a dragon rates up there on list of memorable events for a normal critter. Granted, the Int 2 creature isn't going to tell you that it's X hundred feet north, or Y miles west, but it can easily tell you that yes, I saw it over in that direction, a little ways from the Local Identifying Feature. Heh, don't handwave off Int 2 creatures; sure they won't do calculus, but Lassie was Int 2 after all.

And that's not even touching on Commune With Nature. Fact is the druid can find the dragon.
if the dragon is finished with its rage, the swamp is barren.
If the dragon razes the swamp, it's not planning on sticking around and living there any longer. Razed swampland quickly becomes a really crappy home - oh look, you're constantly exposed, food is scarce now because you've destroyed the ecosystem and you're constantly open to the elements. A pretty dang far cry from comfortable. Or even tolerable.

Not even to touch on the "Dragon living in a swamp, One druid's problem. Dragon destroyed a swamp, Many druids' problem." issue. How To Make Your Problems Worse 101.
The druid has to sleep somewhere. Despite all the nature abilities, druids are as fragile as other humans when it comes to weather. Heat, Cold, all harms the druid. He needs a fire to cook his meals (or does a swamp has many berries for the druid to eat even before he got venom imunity?). Also druids have no divine health so unless he wants to cast remove disease after every heavy rain he better has a dwelling where he'd spend the levels before he could cast 3rd level spells.
Also his equipment will also suffer when constantly exposed to the swamp.
Yes, he does to sleep somewhere. And at 10th level he can do all his sleeping in the form of an indigenous animal thanks to Wild Shape. Like as a snake in a tree somewhere. Pretty inconspicuous if you ask me. As for heat and cold - the swamp isn't going to have heat/cold that's damaging, and if the druid's lived there for a while he's probably quite acclimatized to it.

Food isn't that big an issue to a druid. Long-term animal friends that help him out, his companion, goodberry, purify food and drink, hunting while wildshaped, etc. etc. How or what he ate before 10th level is of absolutly no relevance whatsoever, though. Doesn't matter how he did it, he just did it and survived long enough to get to 10th level.

Why would he have to cast Remove Disease after every heavy rainfall? So he doesn't catch the sniffles? Again, acclimatized. Minor environmental annoyances do not bother him if he's been living there for a good ammount of time.

As for equipment - screw equipment. Equipment hasn't even entered into the picture before this point, and it has no need to now. 99.9% of any equipment the druid would possibly need he can get from, or create out of nature. Part of the whole druid schtick is that a druid is not overly reliant on stuff to do his thing.
The whole fight depends (as always in D&D) on the equipment. If the dragon has some good anti magic items, the druid has a serious problem.
What kind of equipment? Keeping in mind that the dragon has triple standard treasure for a CR 10 encounter, or a grand total of 17400 gold available to him. And there's no reasonable way that it's going to all be in anti-druid related magic items.
A real cunning dragon might, when he can hit the druid one times, sunder the misteltoe.
He might, if he gets into melee. But part of the whole idea is to not melee directly with the giant rampaging armored engine of destruction. In melee they tend to do things like... win. Besides as I've said at my own table many times in the past, any divine caster that carries only one focus on them deserves what they get.
What action is it to transport from one tree to another? If it takes a action the druid runs the risk that the dragon destroys the tree while he is inside, instantly killing the druid. (Or the dragon might ready an action for it)
It's a full round action to jump, tree to tree. But the chances that the tree is at risk are low, again working off the Dragon In Melee = Bad model.

Generally the way it would be set up is as so: Druid gets the drop on the dragon, with Tree Stride already in effect and ready for use. Druid casts Wall of Thorns, trapping the dragon. The dragon can attempt to struggle free by taking a full-round action and succeeding at a DC25 strength check, which with a Str of 23, it only makes on an 18-20. The dragon's breath weapon does not affect the wall in any way, as it is not an edged weapon or magical fire. Druid then casts Baleful Polymorph, and if it doesn't work steps into a tree with his move action. Dragon can attempt to struggle free again, or if it succeeded the first time around, move toward the area where it thinks the druid is. Assuming it has any idea where the druid was when he cast the spell - it may not, taking into account things like size, cover, distance and the fact that the druid may well have been an animal at the time. Charging is not an option (obstacles), and even if it were wouldn't get the dragon far enough to attack the tree it thinks the druid is in (120' total charge distance vs estimated 200' casting distance). Flying is not an option due to close terrain. Dragon can take the Run action to get to the tree, again assuming it knows which one is the right one, but is then out of actions and cannot attack it. Druid then Tree Strides and is gone.
 

Darklone said:
What happens if the dragon charges from 200ft? He'd be right next to the druid who may cast wall of thorns... with himself inside it as well?

Look up the spell description for wall of thorns. Creatures with the woodland stride ability can move through a wall of thorns unimpeded (even though woodland stride does not normally apply to magical imediments).

As to Derren's question of where the druid rests, using badger form to burrow fairly deep is one option among many.

As to sundering the mistletoe, that is only possible if the druid is in human form; if he is in wildshape then any items carried have merged into the wildshape form, correct?

And, as to destroying the tree stride tree, might be easier said than done. This dragon's body is about the size of a horse and is definitely smaller than an elephant - it's not going to destroy trees by stepping on them. The dragon gets only one charge attack, and the trunk of a large tree is going to have a lot of hit points. Dragon would have to do full power attack and then it might destroy a tree one foot in diameter with a single tail slap.
 
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Derren said:
And this Int 2 animal gives the druid exact direction and GPS coordinates? But the animal first has to swim all the way from the dragon to the druid who is very far away in safety.
How likely is that?
Other than the animal companion the animals won't help the druid much.
They'll help him immensely. It's a dragon, not a needle in a haystack. The chances of a fish spotting it on any given day: very good. The chances of the fish having told other fishes "really big bad over there": pretty good. The chances of a druid being able to decipher what the fish means by "over there": pretty good, if it's the druid's home turf. Which it is. Yes, it's also the dragons' home turf, but in this case it works much more to the druid's home advantage.
if the dragon is finished with its rage, the swamp is barren.
It would take the dragon days to clear a swamp of every tree and shrub. And if the dragon could be sure it was a druid attacking him, he might do that. Or, he might guess that it's an invisible, flying wizard attacking him, who teleports away after each Baleful Polymorph attempt, and not bother.

Granted, the loss of trees--if the dragon takes the time to do so--makes things more dangerous for the druid. But not incredibly so.
The druid has to sleep somewhere. Despite all the nature abilities, druids are as fragile as other humans when it comes to weather. Heat, Cold, all harms the druid. He needs a fire to cook his meals (or does a swamp has many berries for the druid to eat even before he got venom imunity?). Also druids have no divine health so unless he wants to cast remove disease after every heavy rain he better has a dwelling where he'd spend the levels before he could cast 3rd level spells.
Sure he does. But using Tree Stride, he can move up to 6 miles in any direction from his confrotation with the dragon. Per jump. Then spend another several hours continuing to move away. As an otter. Or a lizard. Or a falcon. None of which can be tracked by any means due to Trackless Step. (Even assuming something could ordinarily track a falcon on a cloudy day. :p) How exactly is the dragon ever going to learn where the druid has made his camp?
Also his equipment will also suffer when constantly exposed to the swamp.
Not unless you're using House Rules. Otherwise, whatever magical gear he has suffers no ill-effects from the swamp.
And why should the druid hide? After he chased away the dragon, there is no threat in his swamp.
A wise druid knows better than to stop hiding the instant the dragon flies off. He continues his program for another month after the dragon is gone, just to make sure. :)
The whole fight depends (as always in D&D) on the equipment. If the dragon has some good anti magic items, the druid has a serious problem. If not the druid has a clear advantage.
Sure, I can agree with this. If the dragon happens to have in his horde a Ring of Resistance (Electricity), and a Ring of Counterspells with a Wand of Baleful Polymorph to charge it every day. And if during the course of a campaign the DM happened to roll that kind of treasure for a dragon, more power to it. But with random treasure, the dragon is at a serious, very possibly lethal, disadvantage against the druid.
A real cunning dragon might, when he can hit the druid one times, sunder the misteltoe.
Sure. Of course, to do that he has to get into Wall of Thorns range, so he'd better hit that sucker. And hope the druid doesn't have ten backups tucked into his robes. Mistletoe being relatively inexpensive and easy to come by and all. :p
What action is it to transport from one tree to another? If it takes a action the druid runs the risk that the dragon destroys the tree while he is inside, instantly killing the druid. (Or the dragon might ready an action for it)
It's a full-round action, so the dragon could certainly attack the tree. He'd have to destroy it in one round, though, which may be unlikely.
 

Okay...let's start on a different idea.

Lets list what the druid has (spells, equipment, hp, etc)

Then lets list what an average Adult Black Dragon would have. For sake of arguement, we can randomize any unknowns (spells, treasure and such).

Let's play the fight out here (maybe elect one person to act as the dragon).

We have plenty of arbitrators should there be any dscrepencies.

I'm guessing (doesn't have to be true) that a dragon of this age will know th alarm spell and has used it liberally witin the swamp.
 

Alarm is only of use to the dragon if it's sleeping in a restricted area with only a handful of avenues of approach. Casting the spell near itself would be pointless, as the spell's area (20' radius spread) is only 1/3rd the size of the dragon's native blindsense.

It's one of those danmed if you do, damned if you don't kind of deals. If the dragon lairs in an area with restricted access, it can ward the points of entry with Alarm spells. However, if the dragon lairs in an area with restricted access, it has a much harder time getting away easily should the need arise.

Basically what it comes down to is that a dragon's flight ability is one of its greatest natural advantages - they can fly amazingly bloody fast. Damn near nothing other than another dragon stands any chance of keeping pace with one. Lair in a cave or the like and you lose that ability for any encounter that happens in that cave. You can no longer get away easily if things go wrong.
 


One point needs to be stressed here.

Because the druid is untrackable by the dragon, and using animals/spells/etc. can find out where the dragon is hiding (if it is), the druid decides when to start the daily battle. Whether if it's as a bird at 600', or via tree stride at 200' or whatever. Tree Stride is preferred, putting the Druid next to a tree for escape, if needed.

Because the Druid can choose the time, the druid will ALWAYS have Freedom of Movement and Tree Stride running.

There are plenty of ways the druid can hurt the dragon given more than one round (Wall of Thorns + anything is a good start).

There is NO REASONABLE WAY the dragon could a) kill the druid in one round/one standard attack, or b) keep the druid from fleeing. Grapples are no good. Other movement hindrances are nill. Etc.

So the worst that happens to the druid is that the dragon spots him, gets an attack off, and criticals the druid. Then the druid flees via tree stride. It's not enough to kill the druid or stop it from leaving.

The worst that happens to the dragon is that it is Wall of Thorned, hit with lightning bolts, or/and polymorphed. Or attacked by summoned monsters. The dragon heals relatively slowly, and can't self-heal. So, as long as the druid can inflict one more HP per day than the dragon can heal, his job is done.

The real question is:

Can the dragon stop a Freedom of Movement-ized druid from escaping? Ever? If no, I think the answer is obvious. The dragon will eventually drop, because it can't stop the Druid from retreating, fully healing, and coming back for more fun.

It's basically unplayable, unless the Druid gets in a lucky polymorph early in the battles. D&D is not set up for guerilla tactics. Would be an incredibly boring and long series of encounters, I suspect.
 

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