If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?

[Charlaquin]

I dunno - I don't play games in which "establishing mood" is an important part of play. But there are a number of posters for whom this seems very important, perhaps even the principal goal of play.

Maybe they don't declare searches every 5 feet because (i) that would spoil the mood, and (ii) they rely on the GM to regulate the number and effect of traps. But really, you'd have to ask them.

Man, if you're putting untelegraphed traps in your dungeons to establish a mood, and the optimal player strategy for safely dealing with these untelegraphed traps spoils the mood... I dunno, doesn't seem like a very effective approach to the stated goal.

 

[Oofta]

I can only speak for myself, sometimes traps are set dressing sometimes they're a a threat. In most cases it's a background feature that reinforces the fiction of the campaign world.

For example, kobolds (and to a slightly lesser degree goblins) are known for using traps. If the PCs are low enough level that detecting and removing the traps is uncertain, I rely on passive perceptions or investigation to detect them and they need to be disarmed or bypassed. As stated, this primarily means telling me they're moving slowly and cautiously. At a certain point if the party's skills are high enough this could become automatic unless the party is trying to move quickly.

On the other hand ogres don't do traps. They smash.

Traps are rarely a focus of my game, they're basically flavor text. Flavor text that could blow you up if you're not careful or unlucky but flavor text nonetheless.

 

[Oofta]

One other thing that keeps seeming to come up is that using skills to overcome an obstacle is "boring". Do you ever have people use survival to track? Athletics to climb a wall or force open a door? Maybe an acrobatics check to walk along a narrow ledge or walk quickly across ice?

I don't see finding and removing traps any different. I use a mix of challenges, with a mix of solutions. Everything from a straight die roll based on PC stats to challenges that have little to do with the PC. Most fall somewhere in between.

 

[Ristamar]

One other thing that keeps seeming to come up is that using skills to overcome an obstacle is "boring".

If meaningful choices don't often preclude the die roll, the act of simply rolling can become tedious. No different than fights with foregone conclusions that drag out far too long.

 

[Oofta]

If meaningful choices don't often preclude the die roll, the act of simply rolling can become tedious. No different than fights with foregone conclusions that drag out far too long.

If combat is just a slog vs a bag of hit points, that's a problem. No different than out of combat challenges.

I don't see a difference, and what is enjoyable for one group or individual may not be for another. Die rolls for resolving out of combat challenges is just one tool in the box. I use a variety.

 

[5ekyu]

If combat is just a slog vs a bag of hit points, that's a problem. No different than out of combat challenges.

I don't see a difference, and what is enjoyable for one group or individual may not be for another. Die rolls for resolving out of combat challenges is just one tool in the box. I use a variety.

Yeah this last exchangexwas confusing to me. I dont get the linkage between rolling skill checks to resolve a challenge or obstacle and combats with foregone conclusions, particularly as regards to 5e.

When fights look to the participants like foregone conclusions, that easily time or past time that things should be changing... right? One side or the other tries other solutions like flight, surrender, bargaining, evasion and delay for help, etc etc etc.

Similarly, I suppose maybe superficially to a check where (with fails open to progress with setback) a lot of different outcomes are possible.

Nothing really "foregone" there.

Beyond "anything can be boring if you choose to make it so" these foregones and so on seem less like most rpg play I have experienced.

 

[Satyrn]

One other thing that keeps seeming to come up is that using skills to overcome an obstacle is "boring".

It's not that using skills to overcome an obstacle is boring.

What's boring is the DM laying out the obstacle and asking for the skill check to overcome it, with the players major involvement in the scene being to roll some dice. *Sigh* I've done that before:"As you head along the cliff, you come across narrow ledge. Give me a balance check" and "those of you entering the passage, give me a Spot check . . . you notice a tripwire that connects to a crossbow."

There just wasn't enough player input in those scenes to be exciting or worth bothering with at all. And yes, those are real examples from my time DMing 3e, examples I remember because they remind me that I should do better.

 

[iserith]

It's not that using skills to overcome an obstacle is boring.

What's boring is the DM laying out the obstacle and asking for the skill check to overcome it, with the players major involvement in the scene being to roll some dice. *Sigh* I've done that before:"As you head along the cliff, you come across narrow ledge. Give me a balance check" and "those of you entering the passage, give me a Spot check . . . you notice a tripwire that connects to a crossbow."

There just wasn't enough player input in those scenes to be exciting or worth bothering with at all. And yes, those are real examples from my time DMing 3e, examples I remember because they remind me that I should do better.

This reminds me of the DMs who out of nowhere go "Uhhhh, give me a.... Perception check..." without an action declaration by the player preceding the request. It's like the DM is asking permission of the dice to describe the environment. Super common in my experience.

 

[Guest 6801328]

If combat is just a slog vs a bag of hit points, that's a problem. No different than out of combat challenges.

I don't see a difference, and what is enjoyable for one group or individual may not be for another. Die rolls for resolving out of combat challenges is just one tool in the box. I use a variety.

The bold part is absolutely true, and perhaps I should be prefacing a lot of my statements with "in my opinion". But, yes, definitely: when I say something is boring and uninteresting I mean for me. YMMV.

Anyway, back to the dice rolling...

What I don't like is a situation where there's an obstacle (a trap, a lock, a wall, a ledge) that is clearly meant to be solved one and only one way, and that involves a win or lose dice roll.

I prefer trade-offs. Two different options, each of which may or may not require some kind of roll, with different benefits/risks. An example would be the "pick the lock and take time, or smash the door and alert the ogre" example previously. I like that.

If there's a ledge to be crossed with Acrobatics, I want to know what the other option is. Can I go around the long way and make a Stealth check to avoid waking something up? Or maybe it will cost me time?

What I find uninspired and uninteresting, mostly because it doesn't require me to make any decisions, are pure skill check/resource consumption obstacles. The DM could just save time by saying, "Ok, everybody with less than +5 in Acrobatics, take 7 damage. Everybody else is fine." And it honestly wouldn't be any more or less engaging for me. If rolling the die isn't a calculated risk, I'm not invested in it.

I played in an adventure last night and we had a choice of two paths. We chose one, and stumbled into a trap (involving some grease, a ramp, a pit, and bad guys, so it wasn't just a single roll). Before we made the choice we looked around, but there were no clues as to which path we should take, or what the trade-off might be in taking them. And I guess we failed passive Perception checks or something, because the trap was just sprung on us and we all had to make Dex saving throws. But it felt like something that was done to us, rather than something we got ourselves into to, because we only had one decision to make along the way, and it was made randomly because we had no information. We were just along for the ride.

Once we were actually in the pit (I failed my save) we could start making decisions again, and from there on I was engaged again. It was a fun fight.

 

[Satyrn]

This reminds me of the DMs who out of nowhere go "Uhhhh, give me a.... Perception check..." without an action declaration by the player preceding the request. It's like the DM is asking permission of the dice to describe the environment. Super common in my experience.

That was me for most of 3e!