D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[TwoSix]

Yup. Classes aren't actual jobs in-universe. They're packets of mechanics used to build characters that you then flavor as you like.

There's no rogue university that churns out thieves, foppish rakes, swashbucklers, and ninja in equal measures.

The core problem with the D&D class structure is that quite a few of the classes ARE "jobs in-universe", or are at least often treated as such. Especially the classes with distinct magical tricks, like druid and paladin. Not that they can't, or shouldn't be reskinned, but the concept exists as a valid in-universe descriptor.

But D&D also has several completely non-diegetic classes, like fighter and rogue, where an in-universe declaration of "Hey, you're a rogue, just like all these other rogues!" would be laughable.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The core problem with the D&D class structure is that quite a few of the classes ARE "jobs in-universe", or are at least often treated as such. Especially the classes with distinct magical tricks, like druid and paladin.

You mean the nature cleric and the stabber cleric?

I mean, Paladin is just a divine themed gish, no reason that can't be something over that a holy knight. Oath of Ancients kind of neatly proves this.

Druid is the weird one here. They're a nature cleric, but also shapeshifting which has grown to become the actual point of the class. If we ever get good shapeshifting rules, I imagine the casting will eventually fall off like a vestigial tail and suddenly we're free to have a shapeshifter archetype and balance will be restored to the force.

Edit: Paladins being knights of oaths now also brings them in line with their name as Champions of a Cause where Cause is X.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The conundrum for me is that I love games with strongly diegetic elements (something like an Electric Bastionland, or a Troika), but I absolutely do not want D&D to be that game.

Like, one of my current characters is a shadar-kai artificer, who I've reskinned as a shaman. His "tech" is just imbuing special items with the memories of spirits from the Shadowfell.

I also had a "cleric" who was just a soldier possessed by shades during the Mourning (it was an Eberron game), his "spells" were just uncontrollable actions caused by the shades.

Telling me that those kind of characters would be impermissible is one of the few things that would make me walk away from a table, and I definitely wouldn't want that to be assumed standard for D&D.

I on the other hand would prefer that it were, but we all have our preferences. I don't like re-skinning. If your want your powers to work differently or have a different source, I want new representational rules for that.

 

[TwoSix]

I on the other hand would prefer that it were, but we all have our preferences. I don't like re-skinning. If your want your powers to work differently or have a different source, I want new representational rules for that.

Thus, just like some of the factions in Planescape, our battle of chaos versus law must continue!

 

[Kurotowa]

The core problem with the D&D class structure is that quite a few of the classes ARE "jobs in-universe", or are at least often treated as such. Especially the classes with distinct magical tricks, like druid and paladin. Not that they can't, or shouldn't be reskinned, but the concept exists as a valid in-universe descriptor.

But D&D also has several completely non-diegetic classes, like fighter and rogue, where an in-universe declaration of "Hey, you're a rogue, just like all these other rogues!" would be laughable.

I've long held that the best way to handle the in-character use of classes names is as adventurer lingo. A shorthand for those in the trade to quickly summarize the skills of their compatriots and rivals, useful in cases such as when you're forced into temporary parties by circumstances. But as the characters lack access to the objective assessments of the PHB and character sheets, the accuracy of the designations can be pretty fuzzy. Especially when dealing with rare classes or builds that skew away from the class's signature traits. Or when someone's trying to deliberately disguise their fighting style and background.

 

[TwoSix]

You mean the nature cleric and the stabber cleric?

I mean, Paladin is just a divine themed gish, no reason that can't be something over that a holy knight. Oath of Ancients kind of neatly proves this.

Druid is the weird one here. They're a nature cleric, but also shapeshifting which has grown to become the actual point of the class. If we ever get good shapeshifting rules, I imagine the casting will eventually fall off like a vestigial tail and suddenly we're free to have a shapeshifter archetype and balance will be restored to the force.

Edit: Paladins being knights of oaths now also brings them in line with their name as Champions of a Cause where Cause is X.

I just look at it more as I have no problem with "paladin" being an in-universe term, that there are sworn warriors to gods and oaths who fight the forces of evil/darkness/puppy kickers/what have you. Obviously, I'm totally on board with using the paladin metagame chassis for any sort of defensive warrior/gish type.

Doing that same thing with "fighter" is ludicrous.

 

[Cruentus]

If I were ever to run 5e again, I would use the Warlock for all of the spellcasters. That would just be the way magic worked in my homebrew for that campaign. I would also spread out the spells to make those differences larger (between a celestial patron versus an undead one, for example).

I'm running an OSE/Beyond the Wall game in Greyhawk at the moment, and we're using the Beyond the Wall magic system. All spellcasters are Mages. All spellcasters can cast any spell, assuming they learn it or discover or research it. So, your "wizard" wants to heal? Sure. "Cleric" wants to cast fireball, have at it. The magic though, is split into Cantrips (casting roll required), Spells (safe to use, cast one per level), and Rituals (long casting time, but powerful). Once we get/got over the DnD hangover related to magic, its been a lot of fun, and much more interesting.

 

[M_Natas]

The conundrum for me is that I love games with strongly diegetic elements (something like an Electric Bastionland, or a Troika), but I absolutely do not want D&D to be that game.

Like, one of my current characters is a shadar-kai artificer, who I've reskinned as a shaman. His "tech" is just imbuing special items with the memories of spirits from the Shadowfell.

I also had a "cleric" who was just a soldier possessed by shades during the Mourning (it was an Eberron game), his "spells" were just uncontrollable actions caused by the shades.

Telling me that those kind of characters would be impermissible is one of the few things that would make me walk away from a table, and I definitely wouldn't want that to be assumed standard for D&D.

I'm totally for reskinning and all those examples would be allowed in my games (if it fits the campaign, but that's what session 0 is for).
.

 

[M_Natas]

You mean the nature cleric and the stabber cleric?

I mean, Paladin is just a divine themed gish, no reason that can't be something over that a holy knight. Oath of Ancients kind of neatly proves this.

Druid is the weird one here. They're a nature cleric, but also shapeshifting which has grown to become the actual point of the class. If we ever get good shapeshifting rules, I imagine the casting will eventually fall off like a vestigial tail and suddenly we're free to have a shapeshifter archetype and balance will be restored to the force.

Edit: Paladins being knights of oaths now also brings them in line with their name as Champions of a Cause where Cause is X.

Maybe the Ranger would be a better "battle wildeshaper" while the Druid can keep utility wildshape.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Doing that same thing with "fighter" is ludicrous.

Thinking on this just made me realize how weird it is that insistence on this sort of thing crops up with people who also prefer zero to hero as the progression style. Because that implies that the farmboy that gets roped into adventure and learns fighting from his doomed mentor... somehow learns to be proficient with every weapon ever made.

Because that's what the fighter class says. All weapons.