D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Micah Sweet]

This.
The problem with D&D is, that they try to make every class everything.
You wanna play a godless cleric and have all these cool powers but don't want any of the Baggage of actually believing in a god? Sure, go ahead.
Oh, you wanna be a cleric, but you like the Warlock class mechanics? Here, have a Unicorn as a patron. Oh, you wanna be cleric but Sorcerers have cool stuff? Be a divine soul sorcerer.

Like ...

D&D has introduced 3 types of origins of magical powers:

• learning
• borrowed
• innate (I would call it Mutation)

Arcane magic is usually learned or innate. Divine magic is usually borrowed. Innate magic - something is wrong/different with your body/soul to be able to just do it (ancestor was a dragon, went into a magical storm and came out changed ...)

That is the baseline.
So in my games if you want to have divine magic, you need to borrowed it from someone or somewhere external (doesn't even need to be freely given. Chain the unicorn in your wizard tower and drain it for blood to cast divine magic for all I care, at least you will make a good villain in the campaign).

If you want magic that just exist because of your believes - you need to play a sorcerer. Because that is the innate magic class.

An 5e Paladin explanation is just a mess.
So, in my game worlds, Paladins are either beholden to a deity/external power source, or they are basically sorcerer knights (innate casters).

The Warlock is the only one who actually thematically could have all three origins of power.
He borrows power from gods demons and devils.
He can learn magic, seeking out forbidden knowledge by making pacts with powerful beings who will bless him with knowledge or ... even worse: just learn it like a silly wizard, if the Warlock is intelligent enough for it.
Or he tries to change his body to get innate magic. Chugging potions to mutate, having a demon lord twist and transform his body to get him supernatural abilities and so on. - Warlocks want power and they take every way to get it.

• Borrowed Magic can be taken away but is also the easiest to get.
• Learned magic needs to be ... learned. It takes time, money, intellect
• innate magic is the hardest to get. You need to be born with it or something needs to happen to you to change your body (fall in the cauldron with magical potion as a child, having a mad wizard do magical experiments in you, have Cthulhu probe and expand your mind, or a mindflayer larvae implanted ...)

I'm working on some homebrew rules where characters can pray and get answers if they do it right, without needing cleric classes. Of course it is way weaker than normal cleric powers, but it is there.

All of this makes much more sense to me than, "I just believe really hard. Can I have my superpowers now?"

 

[Micah Sweet]

What's the issue? Mechanics are the skeleton to allow for the game to be played. The "skin," story, fantasy (however you may want to call it) is completely separate. There is nothing inherent about the mechanics of a wizard that make them a wizard, only that we've agreed it is a wizard. There is nothing within the mechanics of the cleric class that require devotion to a deity, or devotion of any kind. That's the great thing about D&D and RPGs, they are only limited by a person's imagination. If I want to play a Death Domain Cleric or a Circle of Spores Druid and call them a Necromancer, what's the problem?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your point. Personally, I think a unicorn patron would be pretty sweet.

The problem is that some of don't want the skeleton and the skin to be unrelated.

 

[M_Natas]

"Fanaticism" seems like a weird requirement. The requirement would be "this god decides you make a useful vessel/tool in the world and therefore grants you spells." MOST of the time they are likely to pick a devout follower but gods being ineffible and all, one might choose a less than perfect member of the flock to fit into a much larger plan. The PHB text at the opening of the cleric chapter is explicit: clerics serve gods and are conduits for the divine power of those gods.

Yeah, my very first character was a cleric. She tried to break into a Tempel of Sharess and stumbled accidentally into a Priest Selection Ceremony, where she deceptioned her way trough and ended up getting choosen as a cleric of sharess.
You don't need devotion or anything to the god. You just need an understanding g of serving the god, because sometimes that's better than the alternative (like getting hit by lightning).

 

[Maxperson]

Since Jack Handy is already in the thread, I'll just drop by to say that there's tons of faith out there, in the Deendee world, just not where you might expect.

The pious put their faith in the gods, but those who seem less faithful have faith in less obvious things: sunrises, lords, and even this subtle guy, routine.

I'm not presenting it as all or nothing. Of course the pious put their faith in gods. That's not nearly enough to be granted clerical powers, though. It takes a fanatical level of faith to reach the point where you embody your god's desires and are granted spells. There are very, very few who rise to that level of faith.

 

[Vaalingrade]

What's the issue? Mechanics are the skeleton to allow for the game to be played.

Yup. Classes aren't actual jobs in-universe. They're packets of mechanics used to build characters that you then flavor as you like.

There's no rogue university that churns out thieves, foppish rakes, swashbucklers, and ninja in equal measures.

 

[Maxperson]

Correction, it goes back to 1e where you get first and second level spells from education, training, and experience, not from them being granted by their deity or its servants or by their faith.

Each cleric must have his or her own deity, so when a new player opts to become a cleric (including a druid), you must inform them as to which deities exist in your campaign milieu and allow the individual to select which one of them he or she will serve. This will not necessarily establish the alignment of the cleric, so at the same time the cleric player character should also state his or her ethos (not necessarily to the other players). It is then assumed that prior to becoming a first level cleric, the player character received a course of instruction, served a novitiate, and has thoroughly read and committed to memory the teachings of and prayers to his or her chosen deity, so that the character is dedicated to this deity and is able to perform as a cleric thereof. It is this background which enables the cleric character to use first level spells.
Furthermore, continued service and activity on behalf of the player character’s deity empower him or her to use second level spells as well, but thereafter another agency must be called upon.
Cleric spells of third, fourth, and fifth level are obtained through the aid of supernatural servants of the cleric’s deity. That is, through meditation and prayer, the cleric’s needs are understood and the proper spells are given to him or her by the minions of the deity.
Cleric spells of sixth and seventh level are granted by direct communication from the deity itself. There is no intermediary in this case, and the cleric has a direct channel to the deity, from whom he or she receives the special power to cast the given spells of these levels.
Lesser clerics, then, draw only upon their education, training, and experience to gain spells, just as higher clerics do when they renew their first and second level spells. In order to gain third, fourth, and fifth level spells, however, higher clerics must reach intermediaries of their respective deities in order to have these powers bestowed upon them from the plane of their deity. When clerics become very great, they must petition their deity personally in order to receive the powerful words which enable the casting of sixth and seventh level cleric spells. It is obvious, therefore, that clerics wishing to use third or higher level spells must be in good standing.

So 4th level clerics who picked a god and went through the education but have no faith and are not in good standing with their god can still cast their full complement of spells.

In 2e Complete Book of Priests you have full on non-deity philosophies and forces that spellcasting priests can follow. Legends and Lore has specialty priests for followers of Confucius and Lao Tzu.

"Priests dedicated to Lao Tzu or Taoism must preside over a wide range of ceremonies."

Well, as usual Gygax was contradictory again. 1e Deities and Demigods page 9

"As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric's knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer."

So you know what spell you want and have the faith, it comes to you without having to pray for it. Faith is the key there.

 

[DarkCrisis]

"Fanaticism" seems like a weird requirement. The requirement would be "this god decides you make a useful vessel/tool in the world and therefore grants you spells." MOST of the time they are likely to pick a devout follower but gods being ineffible and all, one might choose a less than perfect member of the flock to fit into a much larger plan. The PHB text at the opening of the cleric chapter is explicit: clerics serve gods and are conduits for the divine power of those gods.

This I like as an explanation over “I just make
Divine magic out of my ass.”

“You may not believe in Selune, but she believes in you.”

 

[Vaalingrade]

A character who literally spews divine magic out of their ass would be pretty funny to play.

"You need healing! PULL MY FINGER!"

 

[TwoSix]

The problem is that some of don't want the skeleton and the skin to be unrelated.

The conundrum for me is that I love games with strongly diegetic elements (something like an Electric Bastionland, or a Troika), but I absolutely do not want D&D to be that game.

Like, one of my current characters is a shadar-kai artificer, who I've reskinned as a shaman. His "tech" is just imbuing special items with the memories of spirits from the Shadowfell.

I also had a "cleric" who was just a soldier possessed by shades during the Mourning (it was an Eberron game), his "spells" were just uncontrollable actions caused by the shades.

Telling me that those kind of characters would be impermissible is one of the few things that would make me walk away from a table, and I definitely wouldn't want that to be assumed standard for D&D.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

The problem is that some of don't want the skeleton and the skin to be unrelated.

That's fine, nothing wrong with that. But that's doesn't mean everyone should have to play that way. I think Hawaiian Pizza is a crime against god, but I wouldn't knock a person who enjoys it.

I'm not advocating for one right way to play. But it feels like there are some people here that are, or at least disparaging those with different play philosophies.