If the mage spells are being weakened, what compensation is being given to the mage?

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hmmm ... in the games I ran, the destruction of magical items, armor, and clothing was always a most unfortunately accident.
It was a function of a basis premise we went on: that if a character failed his save, then all his items had to save also. Typically, powerful attacks like magical fire or dragonsbreath wiped out normal clothing and items easily in such cases, and tended to destroy many magical items.

Ironically, the characters tended to survive, even with failed saving throws.
However, with their saving throw failed, their items were vulnerable, and were quite often destroyed.
This, a failed saving throw was disastrous to the character, whether he survived it or not.

My answer to this problem?
I stopped forcing item saving throws when the characters failed their saves. That made for happier players, and a funner game.

- - -

In ... my ... case as a player, I found out the hard way, over and over, that normal items - such as clothing - were an impediment to the adventurer.
Humor aside (good one, William ) clothing proved to be a serious hazard.
If my character was fireballed (or hit with some other Force attack) and he failed his save but survived the attack, his items had to make saving throws.
Normal clothing never made that save. Not against Fireballs or similar devastating assaults.
The clothing then went up like a torch, with my character still wearing said clothing. That meant further damage for my already damaged character, plus an inability to do anything to protect himself, fight, or anything else ... it was total debilitation for the character (generally, when you are burning like a torch, you are debilitated.)
After said clothing was removed (an epic feat all in itself, to remove burning clothing with your bare hands, and rolling in the dirt is only so effective when ALL your clothing is on fire) then the character could actually do something.
Luckily for me, I had my fellow adventurers on hand, to battle the monsters while I dealt with burning clothing.

If you think CLOTHING is bad, though, think about ARMOR.
If your character fails his save, and then his armor fails it's save, and the attack is a Fireball, the metal armor melts.
A character inside melting, superheated (glowing from the heat) armor is an unfortunate creature. Something to be pitied by even a cleric of Loviatar, Our Lady of Pain.
There is pretty much nothing that can be done, if the character does not have magical heat protection, except watch the barbecue progress, unless a large amount of water is immediately available.

- - -

Someone above has put me into one side of this mage debate.
Forget it. I'm neutral. I sit back in neutrality.
I subscribe to the Balance. There must be a Balance between the Angry People on one side, and the Angry People on the other side, on this issue.
Since I see a host of Angry People on one side, and only a few on the other side, the Balance is not being maintained.

Therefore, I call upon a kindly Druid to come and whack some sense into all those who think one way on this issue.
The Balance must be maintained!

 

[rangerjohn]

You get this from what? They have made buffs of all kinds of laughable duration in combat and useless outside off. Save or die spells are now on the order of be hit and take 5d6 damage. That basically leaves divination and non-buff utility spells. OOh, yummy. Control abilities are now save every round, if we truly believe what they say about hold person. The utility spells are duplicated in items anyone can use. So that leaves divination, that really sounds like a pc.

 

[Sejs]

I've got a better idea. How about we put all the chips on the table and show our cards? You post your workable version of the fighter 10/wizard 10 and explain his role in the party.

Then Norfleet or I will post a non 1/1 progression character who fills the same role or one of the character's roles and demonstrate how it is better or worse. We should probably prohibit prestige classes (although we may come to the conclusion that multiclass fighter/wizards will always be 2nd rate characters unless they take prestige classes). Shall we use standard iconic spread (15, 14, 13, 12 10, 8) for stats, 28 point buy, or something else?

Sounds just ducky - however, may I suggest a seperate thread for it to take place in? Better safe than sorry and all that.

 

[Zhure]

At first I was opposed to the changes, mostly from inertia. After I've given it some thought, I look forward to them.

I think the wizard spell changes we know of (Haste, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace) actually enhances the Fighter/Wizard combo. Now F/W casting haste does it to increase his fighting prowess, not his casting prowess. Likewise for bull's strength. Since the duration is so much lower, he's not committing that slot to the party tank before a fight, but for himself during a fight, or as a pre-fight buff on himself, and maybe a few others.

The straight mage won't be as likely to take Haste, since the piddling increase to AC and attack roll isn't that helpful and the extra attack doesn't mean a whole lot either. It can, certainly, but it's no longer a must-have spell.

The clerical death machines won't be as dangerous now either. A "fighting" cleric in 3e can put a sub-optimal stat in STR, max out his WIS and use the extra spells he gains from a high WIS to cast an extended Bull's Strength and still have more spells left over. Obviously this is more germane in a point-buy or stat-array system.

Extend loses some of it's power, and I think that's a good thing. Most of the time, Extend was used on the 1hr per level spells and it still will be, but they won't be things as powerful as the stat-buffer spells. It'll also make Mage Armor a lot more attractive. Why cast Mage Armor when Cat's Grace lasts as long and grants a boost to touch AC and regular AC, plus initiative and ranged missile combat? No reason, unless you're doing both or know you're going against ghosts and the like. Sure Mage Armor is a lower level spell, but it's not as useful.

I do think the buffs at 1 minute per level would be better served at 10 minutes a level, but we'll see what happens to Persistent spell. I hope they make it a +3 level modifier and it only ups the duration by one category, or some other flat-rate increase instead of making the spells 24 hours. Clerics are overpowered in 3e (IMHO), and Persistent is behind half the smackdowns one sees for Clerics.

To address the original question: I don't think anything is being given to the mage, except a few things.

Scribing costs are going down from what we hear. I dislike that, because it'll upset the delicate Wizard/Sorcerer balance, making Wizards a clear victor in the competition for arcane might. Maybe the Sorcerer will get some cool benefit no one is talking about. There's been hints of an increased BAB and a strong statement that there are no exclusive skills, making UMD a clear choice for Sorcerers to cross-class in. With a high native CHA, dropping 2 skill points into UMD and maybe a precious feat (especially the first level when those pesky metamagic feats aren't terribly useful) into Skill Focus: UMD is a good purchase.

Sorcerers and Bards are also going to be able to swap out spells at every even level, which is a gods-send, but an option I probably won't be taking. (I wish they'd made it every odd level, so the Sorcerer would have something to look forward to at those pesky odd levels.)

The restricted buff duration helps the Sorcerer out a lot. He can afford to blow a lot of 2nd level spells on bull's strength since he has so many extra slots.

All-in-all, I think I like the changes. I haven't seen any of which I flat out don't approve. But I'll wait until I get my copy before reaching a final decision. I'm definitely buying the 3.5 PHB, and probably the MM and DMG. I'll phase the changes in my current campaign after I've had time to study them.

Greg

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I personally always had a problem with being the auxillary support vehicle for all the fighter players.
I would argue that these spells you people call Buff Spells, tend to encourage the wizard to be just that.

Why throw attack spells when you can fill up your spell slots with spells like these, cast them, and then let the now strengthened fighters do all your battles for you?
Bah, humbug! No self-respecting wizard lets the fighters fight his battles. Proper wizards blast their hapless foes where they stand, and the world trembles at their spell-castings! (Well, at least, I think so. )

(This does not mean I approve or disapprove of the changes to Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace. Merely an observation. I must wonder what observations they made at WOTC ... we will find out in July, obviously.)

There is nothing quite so satisfying as roasting the foe alive with Fireball.
It is so satisfying to watch them scream as they burn, melt, and vaporize from the incredible heat.
It is amusing to watch the ground itself evaporate from beneath their feet.
It is great to watch the survivors throw down their glowing weapons, their hands charred from touching them.
And it is gratifying to see all the targets go up in flames as their clothing and gear burn, lamp oil ignites, greek fire explodes, animal fur blazes, monster hide roasts, and metallic scales glow red from the heat. Go up in flames, with no hope of putting the fire out.

Of course, if the opponents are in a town or city that is hostile, the fireball does an excellent job of destroying entire buildings, killing all within, even those not caught in the fireball as the building collapses and they are buried alive.
The fire then spreads deliciously, bringing death and destruction and ruin upon the foes of my character, the great city burning out of control.
Putting fires out is difficult enough IRL. In medieval settings, it is impossible to do without magic or a large source of water. My character takes care of the enemy mages (fried mages do not put out fires) and as for the water, it's way off down at the riverbank, not here in the palace district.

A frostball is almost as nice.
There is nothing like watching your opponents freeze solid, so that the next significant hit with a weapon (or a small pebble) shatters them like glass.
And, their clothing freezes if they do not, nicely refrigerating them into oblivion. Armor, being metallic, makes for a particularly good refrigerant. (This puts new meaning into the phrase: he needs to chill out.)

Hmmm ... but this is all gory and messy, no?
Well, that's what D&D is about. Killing. Killing, killing, and more killing.
Fighters kill by hacking people apart into little pieces (or squashing them while still in one piece, or tearing holes in them with arrows, or other nice things like that.)
WIZARDS must work more ingeniously and ruthlessly to find ever better and better ways to kill people. Indeed, a wizard's survival - regardless of alignment, personality, goals, or anything else! - usually requires that he be really, really good at thinking up new and more devious, dastardly, and awful ways to kill people.
There are exceptions, obviously, to the rule.

How does all of this relate to this thread?

Wizards must be creative.
Wizards must creatively use their magic to survive.
Otherwise, a wizard simply is not going to survive. D4s for hit points, low constitution, an inability to wear armor without hindrance, and low BABs do not make for good survival chances - not even if the wizard sticks with parties altruistically dedicated to protecting him.
Creative use of spells is just that. Stronger or weaker, 2nd Edition or 3.0 Edition or 3.5 Edition, all spells must be utilized creatively and in dastardly ways, if the wizard wishes to survive the adventure.

No wizard can EVER say: My spells are a sure weapon in my hand, tried and true, capable of winning the battle for me.
Any wizard who thinks like that, has a sign on his back saying: Some resurrection required.
The wizard who says that his spells supplement his thinking, creativity, and desire to succeed and survive, is far less likely to ring up huge resurrection bills.
NO modification of the wizard spell roster, and no additions from any outside d20 source (including spells like Denev's Fury from Relics and Rituals) is ever going to change that reality.

My opinion on the matter, folks.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Posted by Rangerjohn:

You get this from what? They have made buffs of all kinds of laughable duration in combat and useless outside off. Save or die spells are now on the order of be hit and take 5d6 damage. That basically leaves divination and non-buff utility spells. OOh, yummy. Control abilities are now save every round, if we truly believe what they say about hold person. The utility spells are duplicated in items anyone can use. So that leaves divination, that really sounds like a pc.

- - -

From Edena_of_Neith

Well, my article above says I think wizards are always in a precarious situation.
Wizards must use creativity and intelligence to win their battles for them, never spell descriptions.
But I must admit, that if they make wizards sufficiently too unattractive to play, then ... well, few people will play wizards. (That's a truism.)

Hmmm ... and then in Dungeons and Dragons 3.75, they will have to redo all the spells, feats, and abilities again, for they want people to play wizards. (Well, I think they want people to play wizards. They DO want people to play wizards? Right? I'm not mistaken about that? They WANT people to play wizards?)

This assumes they have, indeed, made the wizard an unattractive character to play.
Your post, Rangerjohn - if true - tends to indicate they have made them unattractive to play.

I have been looking for factual information on this subject, and little factual information has been posted - a lot of opinion, but not much fact.
However, I must admit - you paint a pretty bleak picture of the D&D 3.5 wizard, Rangerjohn, with what factual information you have presented.

 

[rangerjohn]

You must have some friendly DM's to allow all those effects that are logical but outside the affects of the spells.

 

[Zhure]

Fireballs set fires.

Frozen foes who are dead can cinematically shatter into pellets as a special effect not a mechanical one.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I have had some good DMs, yes.

Frozen foes shatter quite nicely, when you whack them with a large stick, small rock, or the cutting edge of your character's sword.

(blinks)

Rangerjohn, you are saying the destruction of clothing, armor, personal items, magical items, structures and property are outside the effects of Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and other such spells?
Are you sure of this?
Can anyone else confirm this?

 

[ForceUser]

Sigh. You guys should crack open your PHB sometime.

Excerpt from fireball:

A fireball spell is a burst of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to all creatures within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage....The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damage objects in the area. It can melt metals with a low melting point, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, or bronze....etc etc.

Honestly, RJ, wait until you've reviewed the revisions before deciding if you like it or not. Your pessimism is almost trollish at this point.