Ignoble Death by Ray of Frost!?!

[RyanL]

In general, ray sneak-attacks are easy to miagine for me: a ray of frost that hits you in the forehead, or right over the heart, or in the crotch, is likely to hurt a lot worse than one that catches you on the elbow.

True, a Ray of Frost to the face would hurt. However, you would think that hitting someone in the face would require the bypassing of armor, therefore requiring a standard attack roll at the very least. Instead, they get something easier than a standard attack roll.

It's an interesting problem. I understand the logic of the sneak attack. The enemy is denied his DEX, so it's easier for you to hit a soft spot. It seems that, by definition, a sneak attack is an aimed attack that is more difficult than a standard attack, but made possible with no penalty due to the opponent beign denied his DEX. Since the idea of a touch attack is that aiming is not so necessary as with a standard attack, it seems unfair to allow a sneak attack, which requires aiming, to get the benefits of the touch attack. It seems contradictory.

-Ryan

 

[IceBear]

Thinking too much (kidding)

IceBear

 

[RyanL]

Thinking too much (kidding)

IceBear

Actually, you're absolutely right. Since I'm neither a DM nor a Rogue-player, this really does not matter at all to me

-Ryan

 

[Bastoche]

edited due to lack of relevance...

 

[hammymchamham]

IIRC, arcane trickster has +1 caster level/ level of arcane trickster. Unless they errata'ed it...

No, its +1 / level, but with the 4 or so levels of Rogue, at 20th level, his caster level is only 16, which is 20% less likely to bypass SR than a 20th level mage

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

No big deal...

loviatarfrostbringer,

This Rogue has the option of using either two Rays of Frost or loosing 3 or 4 arrows. With a decent Dex and the right equipment, he would average more damage with the arrows (although he would probably be less consistent).

No big deal.

Your real problem is you are having trouble dealing with Improved Invisibility and sneak attacks. The Ray of Frost is a red herring.

 

[The Forsaken One]

EUhm... ever tried quickened twinned rays of frost, then a twinned ray of frost and then another twinned ray of frost for 6 rays of frost in 1 round?

 

[Pielorinho]

It's an interesting problem. I understand the logic of the sneak attack. The enemy is denied his DEX, so it's easier for you to hit a soft spot. It seems that, by definition, a sneak attack is an aimed attack that is more difficult than a standard attack, but made possible with no penalty due to the opponent beign denied his DEX. Since the idea of a touch attack is that aiming is not so necessary as with a standard attack, it seems unfair to allow a sneak attack, which requires aiming, to get the benefits of the touch attack. It seems contradictory.

Hmm...I'm not sure I agree.

Sneak attack = hitting a vulnerable spot
Touch attack = not worrying about whether the spot you hit is covered in armor

Sneak touch attack = not worrying about whether the vulnerable spot you hit is covered in armor.

So it makes perfect sense. I might want to sneak-attack an enemy paladin by shooting her in the heart. With an arrow, I have to worry about whether I puncture her armor (or whether I can hit the very precise space between plates of armor). With a ray of frost, I don't care about her armor: I just aim for the heart.

Similarly, I once wanted to smack a dragon upside the head (this is an example from a game we played). Due to excellent planning, I caught the dragon with no dex bonus. If I'd thrown a rock at his head, I would've had to thrown it hard enough to rattle him through those thick scales of his. But since I lobbed an alchemist's fire at his head, I didn't worry about the scales: it broke on his head and burned into his eyes, doing full sneak-attack damage.

I don't see a contradiction at all.

Daniel

 

[hammymchamham]

I thought Dragons don't have a dex bonus? granted you'd still get SA, but it doesn't help with its (already low) touch AC

 

[Pielorinho]

I thought Dragons don't have a dex bonus? granted you'd still get SA, but it doesn't help with its (already low) touch AC

You can be denied a dex bonus even if you don't have one. That's what happened to this dragon -- the only effect was to allow my touch attack to be a sneak attack.

Daniel