I'm an archer: why shouldn't I be a beast master ranger?

[Danceofmasks]

Even if Ranged attacks don't flank, you can still use Unarmed attacks to flank.

No no ... you don't flank while attacking, flanking is:
When you & an ally are on opposite sides or corners, and are able to attack (i.e. not dazed or whatever) ... you have combat advantage at all times.

You can then decide to use whatever attack you wish, and when the question is asked, "do you have combat advantage?" ... the answer is, "yes, yes you do."

 

[Doctor Proctor]

No no ... you don't flank while attacking, flanking is:
When you & an ally are on opposite sides or corners, and are able to attack (i.e. not dazed or whatever) ... you have combat advantage at all times.

You can then decide to use whatever attack you wish, and when the question is asked, "do you have combat advantage?" ... the answer is, "yes, yes you do."

Yeah, I had thought you had to be able to make an OA, but the PHB just says you have to be able to make an attack. So yeah, you can flank with an Archer. However, if the Archer attacks someone with a ranged weapon while adjacent, he would provoke an OA.

This is why Nimble Strike is actually sometimes useful though. You can Nimble Strike to shift, then make an attack so that you're not provoking an OA. Then you still have your move action so you can move back next to the target to allow your ally to get the flanking bonus.

 

[Zsig]

Yeah, but he's not losing a whole lot either. Just Defensive Mobility and Prime Shot. Having the companion though allows him to pick his Quarry, which is great, and allows him to set up flanks for other allies. There's not as much synergy with the beast proper, that's true, but you're not losing anything by doing it and probably getting a lot of new abilities in return.

Not to mention that depending on the playstyle you're going, you won't necessarily need every possible beast attack there is.

Take your at-wills as an example, if you're going with a bow you won't even need Circling Strike.

Now, if you're a human, even better, one more option to choose (ie: nimble strike, twin strike, and predator strike (or whatever it's called)).


Rangers in general tend to be very repetitive (one reason I don't like them) at least on the early levels (9/10 turns you'll be "spamming" Twin Strike). The fact that early encounter/utility powers are Immediate Actions only make it worse (as it makes your playstyle somewhat more passive). Having cool options at those levels where you can make different (and useful) stuff is a good thing IMO. Of course, as I said, I don't have the book, so I can't tell if there are any such useful beastmastery powers.

 

[Keenath]

An "archer" beastmaster who took nothing but archer powers gets almost nothing out of his pet. It's true that he can mix-and-match a little, but the power sets just don't synergize at all.

That's the biggest reason beastmaster doesn't really make archery obsolete. All the "you and your beast attack" powers are strength-based, and basically equivalent to the TWF attack powers. You can make a beastmaster-archer by mixing the powers you take, but you'd end up the same way as somebody who mixes TWF with archery -- mediocre at both.

 

[Rechan]

That's the biggest reason beastmaster doesn't really make archery obsolete. All the "you and your beast attack" powers are strength-based, and basically equivalent to the TWF attack powers. You can make a beastmaster-archer by mixing the powers you take, but you'd end up the same way as somebody who mixes TWF with archery -- mediocre at both.

I would argue that you could easily straddle. A 16 in Dex, a 14 in Str, and a 14 (with a little jiggering) in Wisdom, and you're set. Easier to do if you land a race with a +2 in Str, Wis, or Dex (or you spend a single point at 4th level on a 13).

Most of the TWF powers also double as ranged powers.

 

[OchreJelly]

Hmmm interesting discussion on prime shot. Maybe there should be a feat that allows you to apply it more. Maybe a feat that does:

"gain your prime shot ability against any enemy not engaged in melee. "

Not sure if that would be too powerful. You would still need to track it, but it could come up more often.

 

[Ceramicwombat]

The first thing I thought of while reading through the Beast Mastery section of Martial Power was a halfling archer with a bear companion. The Beast Protector feat allows you to make an opportunity attack when the bear is attacked, as long as you are adjacent to the bear (but not necessarily adjacent to the enemy). One of the Sharpshooter paragon path's 11th-level abilities is to make opportunity attacks with a bow. Put the two together, and the halfling can stand behind his meat-shield bear and plug away at whoever is attacking the bear while healing the bear with minor actions when necessary. The halfling has mobile cover that can move whenever he does. I'd trade these benefits for Prime Shot and Defensive mobility when rolling up an archer.

 

[Agamon]

Not too sure about archer rangers, but as a warlock, I have no problem with prime shot. I never forget it (lord knows I need that +1 where I can get it...hell, I sometimes take OAs for flank, damn the torpedos), and maybe I'm good with spatial recognition or something, but I don't need to count squares, a glance or two is good enough to figure out if I get the bonus or not. And with the Shadow Walk ability, I make sure the PC is moving around all the time anyway, so it's usually not hard to get a prime shot every round, and in fact, the class would be less interesting without it, I think.

 

[Danceofmasks]

However, if the Archer attacks someone with a ranged weapon while adjacent, he would provoke an OA.

Provoking is awesome to do when flanking with a fighter, since the likelihood of being hit is relatively low (for a decently built archer) vs. a cheesed up PC's combat challenge attack.

What's more, you could:
1) shoot on your target's turn with a readied action (assuming they don't make getting out of the flank their #1 priority) .. which negates their OA entirely.
2) shoot on the next PC's turn (preferably not the fighter you're flanking with) with a readied action, which provokes, allowing the fighter to smack 'em, and also allows you to nail 'em with a disruptive strike.

Really .. until you've seen a powergamer play a melee archer, you may make the mistake of thinking archery isn't better in melee.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Provoking is awesome to do when flanking with a fighter, since the likelihood of being hit is relatively low (for a decently built archer) vs. a cheesed up PC's combat challenge attack.

What's more, you could:
1) shoot on your target's turn with a readied action (assuming they don't make getting out of the flank their #1 priority) .. which negates their OA entirely.
2) shoot on the next PC's turn (preferably not the fighter you're flanking with) with a readied action, which provokes, allowing the fighter to smack 'em, and also allows you to nail 'em with a disruptive strike.

Really .. until you've seen a powergamer play a melee archer, you may make the mistake of thinking archery isn't better in melee.

#1 wouldn't work, because when you ready an action you're taking the action on your turn, because your turn moves in initiative to be before the enemy's turn. Thus, it's your turn, and he can make an OA. Not to mention the fact that you need a specific trigger, and it's possible that your trigger wouldn't go off, meaning you waste the action.