OneDnD I'm getting increasingly worried about the fate of sorcerer

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
The newest UA doesn't feature sorcerers, however, it is full of content that makes me worried about the sorcerer. I started more confident, after all the arcane class spell list had all of these spells that used to be missing, so progress, right? Going from Bard, it seems that sorcerers will have to care about schools instead of a theme, more like one step forward, two steps backward.

Subclass levels seem to be standardized across the board (good), but so far, they don't start at first level. (bad) And sorcerer is the kind of class where most of the theme is in the subclass. This would mean the class is going to have the theme forcefully watered down. Still, could be unfounded and mages will standardize to start at first....

And the most worrying, from reading the spellcasting description, it seems that all classes will prepare spells?

When I talked about the chance to fix the sorcerer I was thinking more about making small adjustments. These changes might end up changing everything I love about sorcerers (strong theme from first level, stable identity, not having to deal with the very artificial scholarly lore...)
 

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CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
I share your concern. Half the reason I would choose to play a sorcerer instead of a wizard is that I wouldn't have to fuss with preparing spells (it's bad enough that my DM won't let me use the Spell Points variant, so I'm still stuck with tracking spell slots). The other half of the reason is the metamagic ability...which are pretty cool, I won't lie.

If sorcerers end up having to prepare spells, I worry it will feel like just another wizard.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
The newest UA doesn't feature sorcerers, however, it is full of content that makes me worried about the sorcerer. I started more confident, after all the arcane class spell list had all of these spells that used to be missing, so progress, right? Going from Bard, it seems that sorcerers will have to care about schools instead of a theme, more like one step forward, two steps backward.

Subclass levels seem to be standardized across the board (good), but so far, they don't start at first level. (bad) And sorcerer is the kind of class where most of the theme is in the subclass. This would mean the class is going to have the theme forcefully watered down. Still, could be unfounded and mages will standardize to start at first....

And the most worrying, from reading the spellcasting description, it seems that all classes will prepare spells?

When I talked about the chance to fix the sorcerer I was thinking more about making small adjustments. These changes might end up changing everything I love about sorcerers (strong theme from first level, stable identity, not having to deal with the very artificial scholarly lore...)
the ranger (or maybe it was bard) has a thing where spells marked with a dagger always count as prepared without counting. I wouldn't be surprised if sorcerer archetypes have similar always prepared spells. With that said the spell lists themselves seem awfully complete in ways that leave little room for differentiation so classes & archetypes themselves will need to do more heavy lifting to differentiate generic mage 1 from generic mage2 of a different class

I also have a suspicion that we might see something like sorcerers with more spell slots than wizard but wizards having some form of quantum spellbook or many more prep slots. Not mentioning spellbooks in the new ritual casting entry is too suspicious.

Bard ranger & rogue were all classes that split into archetypes at level 3 before. Frankly I wouldn't mind seeing the priest & mage classes start out a bit more generic before diversifying at level 3 either. That even works for warlock & sorcerer simply by not being in tune enough with theit bloodline/patron to understand it until they start getting a bit more understanding.
 



Well the Sorcerer is paired with the Warlock and Wizard so my guess is they all start their subclasses at level 1. It has to be a lot easier to move Wizard ahead one level than to do the work of pulling two classes back. Let alone the flavor getting all screwy if you push back Warlocks and Sorcerers.

Right now they are:
Sorcerer - 1, 6, 14
Warlock - 1, 6, 10, 14 (not including level 3 boon)
Wizard - 2, 6, 10, 14

So give the Sorcerer the 1D&D Bard treatment and add another subclass feature and push wizard up one level and you get a standard 1, 6, 10, 14 for the mage group. Assuming no other additions you could swap Arcane Recovery to second level to fill in the vacated spot.

This could actually work out well for Sorcerers since they'll get another feature if my guess is right. In this one aspect anyway. Can't say I'm thrilled by the spell prep changes so far.
 




Definitely, it was always a bit strange that the last two subclass features for the sorcerer came online so late.
Thanks for catching that. How I missed it I'll never know.

I agree moving them up to 10 and 14 would be a positive change. They did it with the rogue and I think it is great even if it delayed some other features.
 


IMO Sorcerers should follow the Warlock pattern of 1 (3) 6 10 14 because the power source, like the patron is too fundamental to run the class without it. I don't know what the L3 possible proxy subclass should be or even if it's just an extra subclass feature but I like that warlocks still pick something important when everyone else is picking subclasses. Possibly metamagic is enough as it's pretty influential over the class.

Meanwhile wizards can use the normal 3, 6, 10, 14 because the base class is strong and as you don't actively lose spell schools L1 gives you enough to work with. There's ultimately no benefit in making wizards be weird and specialise at level 2 - and I'd either say the same about clerics or make their domains much more important.
 

God I hope they make sorcerers more meaningfully different from Wizards. I would love to see a completely different casting mechanic.
I'm a huge advocate for the sorcerer having very strong subclasses on a weak core the way that started to happen in Tasha's. I want, for example, for the majority of the spell list to come from the subclass. And for the dragon sorcerer to be beefy enough to hang on the front lines. And for each subclass to be able to tap, and potentially recharge the font of power in a different way so for example the dragon sorcerer recharges 1pp by reducing a foe to 0hp and gets to turn power points into bonus action breath weapon.
 

All classes will prepare spells, will have access to ritual casting, and Sorcerer will have the same spell list as wizard. For base mechanics it will look quite the same.

Thematically sorcerer is innate, intuitive magic.
Wizard are scholar, learned magic.

How to mark this essential difference?

Using spell points may add some special flavor but it’s not so amazing. You manage your spell differently, but overall it’s converting 3 shield spell into a fireball. that is not an identity.

metamagic is the key element for sorcerer. Able to change the application of actual spells.
Tasha add the possibility to change element damage type (Transmuted spell), there is a need to alter shape ( cone, line, radius). At higher level sorcerer should be able to simply spend sorcerery point to do something cool. That may lead to abuse and DM fiat but that is the real essence of sorcerer.
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Yeah I agree spell points are not really that meaningfully different from spell slots. I’m not sure what would be. Some kind of risk mechanic would be cool, but I can’t imagine it happening.

I suppose spell lists dictated, or mostly dictated, by sub-class, with metamagic, would suffice, but…I still don’t find it all that exciting.
 

TwoSix

Unserious gamer
IMO Sorcerers should follow the Warlock pattern of 1 (3) 6 10 14 because the power source, like the patron is too fundamental to run the class without it. I don't know what the L3 possible proxy subclass should be or even if it's just an extra subclass feature but I like that warlocks still pick something important when everyone else is picking subclasses. Possibly metamagic is enough as it's pretty influential over the class.

Meanwhile wizards can use the normal 3, 6, 10, 14 because the base class is strong and as you don't actively lose spell schools L1 gives you enough to work with. There's ultimately no benefit in making wizards be weird and specialise at level 2 - and I'd either say the same about clerics or make their domains much more important.
I could get behind making all subclasses either 3/6/10/14 or 1/3/6/10/14.
 

Some other meta magic options that need to come:

ability to choose any metamagic option, and pay a higher cost.
ability to cast a spell and removing concentration
ability to use magic action surge and cast to real spell in a round. ( without MC into 2 levels of fighter!)
Ability to cast a spell using a lower spell slot, we just see this with the conjure barrage of the Ranger.
Ability to switch for line, cone, burst.

All these option need to be scaled, and not need to be available at level 1. But eventually a sorcerer might do this.
 

I'm looking at the arcane spell list and what's on it and in what school.

Either they're going to give sorcerers the same choice of spells as wizards (they won't). Or to stop them getting spells like magnificent mansion, true polymorph, and other restricted to wizard things, they're going to lock out the conjuration and transmutation spells from them. Which in turn will utterly gut the sorcerer of many spells which are extremely thematic or iconic for them.
 

Undrave

Hero
The newest UA doesn't feature sorcerers, however, it is full of content that makes me worried about the sorcerer. I started more confident, after all the arcane class spell list had all of these spells that used to be missing, so progress, right? Going from Bard, it seems that sorcerers will have to care about schools instead of a theme, more like one step forward, two steps backward.

Subclass levels seem to be standardized across the board (good), but so far, they don't start at first level. (bad) And sorcerer is the kind of class where most of the theme is in the subclass. This would mean the class is going to have the theme forcefully watered down. Still, could be unfounded and mages will standardize to start at first....

And the most worrying, from reading the spellcasting description, it seems that all classes will prepare spells?

When I talked about the chance to fix the sorcerer I was thinking more about making small adjustments. These changes might end up changing everything I love about sorcerers (strong theme from first level, stable identity, not having to deal with the very artificial scholarly lore...)

If subclasses are now all on the same track, they could make the Sorcerer a series of class-less subclasses. You discover your bloodline and add it to whatever else you were doing already.
 

My suggestion is to spend "essence points" (an idea from Magic of Incarnum) to "buy" metamagic effects, for example energy subtituion. Maybe we could use different pools of essence points, one to recover with only one turn to rest, other would need a short rest, and other with the most powerful effects a long rest.

Other idea is sorcerer subclasses as hibrid of arcane spellcaster and other power, for example divine soul with some divine spells, or wilder with some psionic powers.

Sorcerers are very cool with the concept of "my ancestor studied in Monster-High".
 

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