OneDnD I'm getting increasingly worried about the fate of sorcerer

[Baron Opal II]

I think that at the absolute worst, it will become a subclass of wizard where you have sorcery points instead of a spellbook, and pick bloodline abilities instead of guild abilities.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think that at the absolute worst, it will become a subclass of wizard where you have sorcery points instead of a spellbook, and pick bloodline abilities instead of guild abilities.

Yeowch. Copying Pathfinder's stuff would be a huge downgrade in almost all ways. Especially thematically.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Never understood the logic of folding sorcerer into wizard. Though I'm 100% convinced they should be their own class, if I had to merge it with one, it would be the warlock.

Anything which can be a patron can be a bloodline and vice versa. The two have a lot in common with 'weird' spellcasting and identical subclass themes.

Someone on reddit today already suggested that they could share subclasses in 5.5e.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Never understood the logic of folding sorcerer into wizard. Though I'm 100% convinced they should be their own class, if I had to merge it with one, it would be the warlock.

Anything which can be a patron can be a bloodline and vice versa. The two have a lot in common with 'weird' spellcasting and identical subclass themes.

Someone on reddit today already suggested that they could share subclasses in 5.5e.

If I had to fold two of the arcane casters into each other I'd fold wizard into sorcerer. Where a wizard was a specialist sorcerer whose two special things were (a) using Int and (b) preparing from books rather than being a spells known class.

And as it's getting me cranky. Other than the draconic bloodline D&D sorcerers are not and have never been bloodline based*. You're thinking of Pathfinder Sorcerers.

D&D sorcerers can be bloodline based. But a Shadow Sorcerer might also be a shadow sorcerer because they were born at the moment of the Grand Eclipse with all three moons lining up between the sun and the planet. Or they might be shadow sorcerers because they blundered into the Shadowfell and survived there for years and had it seep into their bones. Or any of a dozen other reasons.

The wizard studied for their spells. The warlock bargained for them. The bard probably practiced for them. The sorcerer? Got lucky - or none of the above.

* Although draconic bloodline was the only suggestion offered in 3.0/3.5. There are reasons I find its fluff highly unimpressive.

 

[MoonSong]

If subclasses are now all on the same track, they could make the Sorcerer a series of class-less subclasses. You discover your bloodline and add it to whatever else you were doing already.

Thank you for making my fears worse.

 

[MoonSong]

Never understood the logic of folding sorcerer into wizard. Though I'm 100% convinced they should be their own class, if I had to merge it with one, it would be the warlock.

Anything which can be a patron can be a bloodline and vice versa. The two have a lot in common with 'weird' spellcasting and identical subclass themes.

Someone on reddit today already suggested that they could share subclasses in 5.5e.

I've expressed my thoughts on the matter. D&D 5E - On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Subclass levels seem to be standardized across the board (good), but so far, they don't start at first level.

I wouldn't worry too much about that.

People are reading a ton into it, but all three classes were classes that started their subclasses at 3 anyway.

And WotC have said they prefer subclasses to start at 1 - literally in the video for the previous playtest IIRC.

So the only reason to start at 3 is compatibility. And the reason to stick with 1 for Sorcerers is the same - compatibility.

And the most worrying, from reading the spellcasting description, it seems that all classes will prepare spells?

Personally that doesn't worry me.

Being able to prepare spells will just give them more flexibility. The main reason Sorcerers exist is to, as you seem to note, make it so you can have a caster who is either a natural, or "not a book wizard" or the like. If they can just pull spells from the ether, that's fine. I mean, that's already what they do - it's not like they can access spells not on their spell list.

I imagine they'll probably get to be the most powerful Arcane caster, because of metamagic allowing them to boost spells, and Wizards will get to be the most flexible, because of their spellbook allowing them to access a ridiculous number of spells effectively prepared.

Re: schools, I will be shocked if Sorcerers can't access all schools of Arcane.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Thank you for making my fears worse.

I mean, it's genuinely not reasonable to assume that all classes ARE on the same track, that's the thing. There's no good evidence to support it, and WotC were saying they preferred level 1 literally last month. Compatibility seems like the best explanation for stuff being L3 here.

 

[Undrave]

Thank you for making my fears worse.

Sorry, that wasn’t my intention.

 

[Li Shenron]

And the most worrying, from reading the spellcasting description, it seems that all classes will prepare spells?

On the bright side, the only 5e shortcoming of being a Sorcerer used to be having the smallest number of known spells of every full caster, and now they will know A LOT. Except that, if they go with the currently rumored "four schools of magic only", the Wizard will of course know twice as many.

I don't know what to say, I've always wished that even Clerics and Druids had a fixed list of spells known, instead of access to the entire class spells list, and now 6e seems to give everyone full access to entire (or half) lists.

So what will really sort the Sorcerers from the Wizards will be the specific class features. Maybe they'll come up with some additions to the Sorcerer class. I wouldn't hold my breath though, usually WotC always falls for the "but Wizards should be able to do this (read: everything)" mantra, and will make sure Wizards eventually will steal the Sorcerer's schtik again, like with metamagic.

 

[MoonSong]

On the bright side, the only 5e shortcoming of being a Sorcerer used to be having the smallest number of known spells of every full caster, and now they will know A LOT. Except that, if they go with the currently rumored "four schools of magic only", the Wizard will of course know twice as many.

That's not a bright side. That is a cop out. Part of the essence, the feel of the sorcerer is the stability of character identity given by a fixed set of spells known. Sorcerer magic is not an active choice, and overall not an ongoing choice. Having to prepare spells is an active ongoing choice, and opting out of it is a betrayal of the party because then you are not contributing fully to the party and the party suffers because of it. The possibility of full access to wizard spells is tempting, but I also expect them to suddenly curtail it for no reason. Like dragon sorcerers only get evocation, divine souls only get abjuration and so on. The more mechanics sorcerers and wizards have in common, the more the sorcerer will suffer.

 

[Li Shenron]

That's not a bright side. That is a cop out. Part of the essence, the feel of the sorcerer is the stability of character identity given by a fixed set of spells known.

Yes I was being ironic. As I just wrote elsewhere, I actually always wished that even Clerics and Druid had a limited/chosen known spell list. In addition to strengthening character identity, it also makes strategic thinking more important when levelling up.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Known Spells are merely Prepared Spells that you just never change.

So if by some chance they decide to try out Sorcerers as Prepared casters in the Mage packet... just make your initial spell choices as your new slots arrive and never swap them out in the morning. Your results become the same as Known Spells except you end up with more of them over your career.

 

[Maxperson]

The newest UA doesn't feature sorcerers, however, it is full of content that makes me worried about the sorcerer. I started more confident, after all the arcane class spell list had all of these spells that used to be missing, so progress, right? Going from Bard, it seems that sorcerers will have to care about schools instead of a theme, more like one step forward, two steps backward.

I don't think this is as big of an issue as you think. Yes the 2014 bard class doesn't say it is limited to 4 schools, but the bard list of spells you pick from consists primarily of those 4 schools. There some exceptions, but the vast majority are enchantment, divination, transmutation and illusion. And healing spells are giving to you via Songs of Restoration.

I really doubt sorcerers will see the same school limitation.

And the most worrying, from reading the spellcasting description, it seems that all classes will prepare spells?

This is a power increase for sorcerers if they get the same ability as bards to just prepare any spell of any level that they can cast each day. They will no longer be limited to just a few spells to pick from.

Personally I hate that change to the bards and will never allow it to be used in my game, but there it is.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don´t see any scenario where they scrap a class. Full stop.

 

[Mephista]

They'll likely print the sorcerer, but I am honestly afraid that they'll still end up as the "wizards stole my metamagic, Venn Diagram of Patrons and Origins is a circle" class.

If that does happen, I'm just dropping Sorcerer and making Artificer into the third Mage class for my game. Metamagics can be Mage feats, and druid can steal dragon soul, bards wild magic and warlocks already have abomination magic.

 

[Yaarel]

Regarding a non-Wizard identity of the Sorcerer.

What if the Sorcerer serves as the missing Swordmage: a fullcaster with melee-range combat spells, who focuses on melee combat and is a Warrior?

 

[Gorck]

Regarding a non-Wizard identity of the Sorcerer.

What if the Sorcerer serves as the missing Swordmage: a fullcaster with melee-range combat spells, who focuses on melee combat and is a Warrior?

That would certainly line up well with my desire to have Sorcerers be CON-based instead of CHA-based. After all, their magic comes innately from within, and being CON-based would improve their HP to survive in melee combat (especially if they only get Light Armor in this fictional redesign)

 

[MoonSong]

Regarding a non-Wizard identity of the Sorcerer.

What if the Sorcerer serves as the missing Swordmage: a fullcaster with melee-range combat spells, who focuses on melee combat and is a Warrior?

If that happened, how would we get the concepts that only sorcerer currently can?

 

[DEFCON 1]

At that point, re-fluffing... the same way other folks currently have to do to get those class concepts the 5E game doesn't support, like the Psion, Warlord, Swordmage, Shaman, Oracle, Warden, and so forth.

Not the answer anyone really wants... but quite possibly could end up being the only answer that possibly works if things don't go as planned and changes happen.