abyssaldeath
First Post
Ah yes, the "lets make the player waste a daily" trick. Ever so much fun.
/sarcasm.
/sarcasm.
I'm warming to the Ardent
- Thread starter Obryn
- Start date
IanB
First Post
The circumstances in which that power is Really Really Good are pretty rare, most of the time all you're going to get out of it is the +2 to defenses. I think it is OK for parties to occasionally just blow away an encounter that plays to their strengths like this one does. Sometimes you need that "bwa ha ha we are invincible!" feeling, after all. One easy encounter does not a campaign ruin.
Samir
Explorer
I've gotta agree with abyssaldeath here. Why not just make your encounter itself more challenging, instead of wasting player dailies so the monsters can keep up?
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Kingreaper
Adventurer
It's not something I'd do myself, but that's because most of my monsters (especially the mindless ones) aren't actually that keen on fighting to the death.
Personally, I'd only have the monsters come back if there were something very important they wanted in that location. (and in that case they probably wouldn't fully leave, they'd retreat just out of range of those hiding in the defensive burst, and then hit anyone who chased them. Of course, the players could then try and trick them back into range etc.)
Otherwise, they know they're hosed, they flee, battle won.
And if they ARE going to come back, well, the PCs can probably get started on what they came to do in the meantime, and possibly get it done with the ardent still maintaining. Battle won.
I can't see many situations in which it would be a "wasted daily"; but then in my campaigns most of the enemies are IN THE WAY, and those that are specifically targeted for death are going to be running away. (I have an average of one or two monsters flee per combat. Different players react differently to this fact; some chase them down, some just let them go)
Obryn
Hero
Yup!See, I told you they were kinda cool.
I'm worried now, though. I gave him free rein to tweak anything that didn't quite work last session, so he's upgrading to (probably) a greatspear. Now he'll hose me worse.
-O
jgsugden
Legend
There is nothing wrong with a smart monster acting smart.
One of the huge advantages of a live RPG over a MMORPG is that it is easier to make each monster feel different. MMOs strive to do that, but it is far easier in D&D to do it.
If a mindless monster in D&D were to retreat to come back after a daily had faded, it'd be a real problem. But monsters should not all act the same. That is BORING. A smart monster should use those smarts.
Having a smart monster retreat when the odds are clearly against it is one of the things that makes D&D different than an MMO - and in my mind superior.
Some would argue that all you're doing is screwing the player. I disagree. You're challenging the player. If the player figures out that the monster is smart, the player will need to find ways to counteract the intelligence of the monster and pin it in so that the PC gets full use out of the strong dailies, etc...
Does this means that PCs should constantly be frustrated by fleeing monsters? No. The cardinal rule of D&D is that there needs to be a reasonably clear path to victory for the party. That path might be frustrated by bad luck, by surprisingly bad tactics, or by unanticipated factors, but the PCs should always have the upper hand (although it is best, IMHO, to guise that upper hand as a long shot as much as possible - PCs don't really need to have been at a disadvantage to feel like they beat the odds).
If the vampire says, "Cover my retreat!", the PCs should have a clue that it wants to get away. Now you have a new goal in the fight - stop the beats from escaping. If it gets far enough away, you have a chase potential. There is a lot of fun that can still be had, even if the daily didn't do everything it possibly could in a specific battle.
One of the huge advantages of a live RPG over a MMORPG is that it is easier to make each monster feel different. MMOs strive to do that, but it is far easier in D&D to do it.
If a mindless monster in D&D were to retreat to come back after a daily had faded, it'd be a real problem. But monsters should not all act the same. That is BORING. A smart monster should use those smarts.
Having a smart monster retreat when the odds are clearly against it is one of the things that makes D&D different than an MMO - and in my mind superior.
Some would argue that all you're doing is screwing the player. I disagree. You're challenging the player. If the player figures out that the monster is smart, the player will need to find ways to counteract the intelligence of the monster and pin it in so that the PC gets full use out of the strong dailies, etc...
Does this means that PCs should constantly be frustrated by fleeing monsters? No. The cardinal rule of D&D is that there needs to be a reasonably clear path to victory for the party. That path might be frustrated by bad luck, by surprisingly bad tactics, or by unanticipated factors, but the PCs should always have the upper hand (although it is best, IMHO, to guise that upper hand as a long shot as much as possible - PCs don't really need to have been at a disadvantage to feel like they beat the odds).
If the vampire says, "Cover my retreat!", the PCs should have a clue that it wants to get away. Now you have a new goal in the fight - stop the beats from escaping. If it gets far enough away, you have a chase potential. There is a lot of fun that can still be had, even if the daily didn't do everything it possibly could in a specific battle.
jgsugden
Legend
OOC: What makes the Ardent kinda cool to you?See, I told you they were kinda cool.
I can't really settle on any iconic fictional characters that scream ardent to me. Perhaps that is because I can't figure out what a scream of ardent would sound like. It seems from the fluff like the ardent is another name for an empath, but many of the powers don't match that concept. It just feels like a hodgepodge of psionic powers, just like the psion does.
I think the primal power soruce was pretty successful in taking the 3.5 druid and splitting it into 3 different classes (Shaman, Druid, Warden). Each feels different and plays quite differently.
In the psionics area, I feel that they were less successful. It feels more like they took a bunch of abilities and just pushed the 'controllerish' ones in one PC with rudimentary control mechanics and pushed the 'leadery' ones on the leader with a minor twist on the standard leader format. A ranger doesn't just feel like 'the martial striker'. It comes with a bunch of evocative concepts tied into it about nature, scouting, archery and two weapon use. The ardent just feels like "psionic leader".
Plus, I felt like psionics didn't stand out as a distinct power source, either. When I read through the class I found myself saying, "This looks like a bard," "This looks like a cleric", or "This looks like a warlord". I didn't find myself saying, "Wow, so that's really a core type of ability for an ardent!" For such an emotionally driven class, I was surprised not to find more powers that sounded fun to roleplay out, like the bard's "Vicious Mockery", the Fighter's "Come and Get it!" or an Invoker's "Invoke Obedience".
Beyond using power points, the mechanics of the classes didn't do much for me, either.
If I were ranking the classes in each role that I'd like to play next, the Psionic classes that use PPs would be last in every role. The monk is actually near the top of my striker list, but it is the one class that stands out as a distinctive psionic class.
Some of these problems may be reduced when we get more material for the classes, but I doubt it. The problems seem to be more about the basic core of the class than the options available to implement that core.
DracoSuave
First Post
Yeah, but you're also doing stuff at-will no one else can do.
I mean, yeah, take the ardent. There's only so many ways to do '1dx + foo damage, and they get a +y bonus/penalty to bar.' But at higher levels, you're doing wierd things at-will, like:
Changing the defense they attack (yes, you'll be attacking AC instead of Reflex on the fighter today)
Handing out resist all to damage
Forcing enemies to attack their friends.
And this is without sacrificing the class's basic utility either as a Leader. And an additional bonus?
Stealth is less good against a party with an Elnlightened Ardent. Being able to potentially add your own Wisdom to everyone's Perception and Insight makes everyone skill trained in it who wasn't already.
Similiarly, a Euphoric Ardent allows a party to push their Intimidate checks to the limit, which ends fights quicker.
Besides, this is the first class that truly allows you to play this guy:
And that is awesome.
I mean, yeah, take the ardent. There's only so many ways to do '1dx + foo damage, and they get a +y bonus/penalty to bar.' But at higher levels, you're doing wierd things at-will, like:
Changing the defense they attack (yes, you'll be attacking AC instead of Reflex on the fighter today)
Handing out resist all to damage
Forcing enemies to attack their friends.
And this is without sacrificing the class's basic utility either as a Leader. And an additional bonus?
Stealth is less good against a party with an Elnlightened Ardent. Being able to potentially add your own Wisdom to everyone's Perception and Insight makes everyone skill trained in it who wasn't already.
Similiarly, a Euphoric Ardent allows a party to push their Intimidate checks to the limit, which ends fights quicker.
Besides, this is the first class that truly allows you to play this guy:
And that is awesome.
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