immediate and Swift actions

[NuSair]

1. The introductory passage of page 7 states "During a normal round..." That means there are exceptions.

2. The definition of a round, as given in the PHB is like that of "a week" - it can either mean "Sunday to Saturday", or it can mean "from now until next Friday". So, a round can mean "from the top of the Init order to the bottom", or it can mean "from my turn until my next turn".

The descriptions given for Swift and Immediate actions, then, clarify how #1 and #2 work out in practice. In particular:

#3. "If you use an immediate action when it isn't your turn, you can't use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn."

and

#4. It does not say that using a Swift action prevents you from using an Immediate action immediately after your turn ends.

So that's it. In the normal case, either:

A. On your turn you'll use a Standard, Move, and Swift action (or some other allowed combination)

OR

b. You'll use an Immediate action when it's not your turn, and then on your turn you'll use a Standard and Move action (or a Full-round action).

But there is a corner case where you use your full set of actions on your turn (per A) and then before the end of that round you find the need to use an Immediate action. And that's allowed - that just means you've used up your Swift action for your next turn. (It's allowed because of #3 and #4, and it fits with #1 because that means it's no longer a normal round.)

Here's the problem with your argument.

If you are going to use the example of the round being 'but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round'. There is a huge problem with that. It's stated pretty clear here: 'During a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform an immediate action or a swift action, and as many free actions as your DM allows.'

So, if you were to perform a swift action during your turn, the 'round' isn't up until your next turn. So, you couldn't do an immediate action.

 

[kexmal]

A good point. I see the round ending after your turn. This means that using an immediate action after your turn eats into the swift action during your next turn because they would be part of the same round.

Ok what I am saying is this; If you take a swift you CANNOT take an immdeiate in the same round. If you DONT take a swift you CAn take an immdeiate in the SAME round BUT it eats you NEXT swift on your TURN BUt you can then take ANOTHER immdeaite action AFTER your TURN, druing the next round that you made you immediate, but it eats you SWFIT for the NEXT TURn and so on... BUT in no way can you take an immediate and a swift in the SAME ROUND.

 

[delericho]

Yes, I know that. I've known that since I started playing dnd back in 1982.

What I am saying is that turn isn't defined such that it tells you when your actions reset.

Fair enough. And...

Sitting back watching the discussion, it seems to me the difference of opinion come down to when actions reset.

Yep, that's a very astute point.

Or is it:
A players/creatures actions reset after their turn is over on the next initiative count?

I was going to recommend we look at the text for Attacks of Opportunity, because these also have a "you can only use 1 per round" restriction (and because Immediate actions didn't exist in the PHB/SRD).

Naturally, of course, the text for AoOs is exactly the same - it doesn't specify exactly how and when they reset. Nor have I been able to find any definitive answer on the topic, though there may be a Sage Advice answer out there.

However, in this case I would argue that it's obvious that for AoOs the "1 per round" means "once between your turn and your next turn"... and that therefore the exact same should apply to Immediate actions. But, of course, without a direct text quote that's, strictly speaking, a matter of interpretation.

 

[Dandu]

Ok what I am saying is this; If you take a swift you CANNOT take an immdeiate in the same round. If you DONT take a swift you CAn take an immdeiate in the SAME round BUT it eats you NEXT swift on your TURN BUt you can then take ANOTHER immdeaite action AFTER your TURN, druing the next round that you made you immediate, but it eats you SWFIT for the NEXT TURn and so on... BUT in no way can you take an immediate and a swift in the SAME ROUND.

You do realize that what you are saying has no relevance to the actual point being discussed, right?

 

[NuSair]

It depends on how you are defining round.

The PHB gives 2 separate definitions of what a round is, but it doesn't specify (nor does any later product) on which version of the definition to use when regarding actions in a combat round and when they reset.

 

[kexmal]

So i like Nusairs observations as well we need to realize that your TURN ending leaves resets your immediates (som immediates reset at the END of your turn)... BUt that in no way means you can take BOTh an immediate and a swift in the SAME round as per the post Nusair highlighted and what my whole grip has been about...

 

[kexmal]

You do realize that what you are saying has no relevance to the actual point being discussed, right?

Maybe your not understanding what i am getting at but this makes all the diff. Just to recap you are saying you CAn take an immediate and a swift in the same round I am arguing against that...how is what I said not relevant? But anyway that is just my opinion and rules backed opinion you can disagree and I may be wrong
i suggest rereading what i posted. and read it alittle more carefully (not trying to be rude of course).

 

[delericho]

Here's the problem with your argument.

If you are going to use the example of the round being 'but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round'. There is a huge problem with that. It's stated pretty clear here: 'During a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform an immediate action or a swift action, and as many free actions as your DM allows.'

Again, "during a normal round". That allows for exceptions.

The text of Immediate and Swift actions makes it clear that it is Immediate actions that impose a 'forward' limit, while Swift actions do not - and they don't need to, because they're inherently limited by the fact that you can only take them on your turn.

 

[Dandu]

It depends on how you are defining round.

The PHB gives 2 separate definitions of what a round is, but it doesn't specify (nor does any later product) on which version of the definition to use when regarding actions in a combat round and when they reset.

Would you say it possible that, for immediate and swift actions, the round resets after the end of an individual's turn? As I noted earlier, having a 1/round limitation on swift and immediate actions meshes well with immediate actions after a turn eating into the swift action for the next turn, because the space between and the next turn would be part of the same round.

Ick. If ever there was an argument for dropping Swift/Immediate actions altogether...

Yeah, Celerity would be it. What's really great is when you have two wizards each casting Celerity in response to each other in a game of "I go firster".

 

[kexmal]

Again, "during a normal round". That allows for exceptions.

The text of Immediate and Swift actions makes it clear that it is Immediate actions that impose a 'forward' limit, while Swift actions do not - and they don't need to, because they're inherently limited by the fact that you can only take them on your turn.

How is that relevant though what is this: If you DONT take a swift you CAN take an immediate. If you Do take an immediate you CANNOT take a swift on the next turn... clear enough? But you can take another immediate AFTER your turn (meaning fduring the next round after you turn on initiative). but in what way does that proviso allow a swift and an immediate in the same round?