immediate and Swift actions

[kexmal]

Sitting back watching the discussion, it seems to me the difference of opinion come down to when actions reset.

Is it:
At the start of the next round, when the highest initiative starts their action?

(Here is the text for round from the RC:
Round
Combat is played in rounds. Each round represents 6 seconds
in the game world, regardless of how long it takes to play out
the round. A minute contains 10 rounds. See Initiative, page
70, for more on beginning combat.)

Or is it:
A players/creatures actions reset after their turn is over on the next initiative count?

Supporting text (kind of):
For almost all purposes, there is no relevance to the end of a round or the beginning of a round. A round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

While I have been playing that once a players turn is over, they can use an immediate action that would take away from their next turn- I cannot find text to support that.

Sry one more thing i dont understand cause its clear that immedaites do eat away your swift until AFTER your next TURN. But that is almost irrelevant to what I am asking... I use my swift for the round can i also use an immediate in the same round no matter when they reset?

 

[Dandu]

Fine I am wondering why it wouldnt be exclusive consider the 'or' in the PREVIOUS sentence is unambiguously exclusive. Why could you NOt do two swifts in a round OR two immediates in a round but due to strange rules interpertation do an immedaite and a swift in one round?

Well, for starter's two swifts in a round is prohibited in the text of the swift action, and two immediates in one round is prohibited by the text of the immediate action, but out of all the restrictions explicitly mentioned for those actions (such as no immediate actions when flatfooted, etc), you never see anything prohibiting a swift action on your turn followed by an immediate action after your turn.

 

[NuSair]

From the SRD:

"Each round’s activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds, in order, from there. Each round of a combat uses the same initiative order. When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)"

That's the definition right there - your turn is when you get to take your actions. It works the same way as in virtually every game (and queue) ever. D&D didn't invent the phrase "wait your turn".

Yes, I know that. I've known that since I started playing dnd back in 1982.

What I am saying is that turn isn't defined such that it tells you when your actions reset.

 

[kexmal]

But I liked my last post later guys for the night and thank you all for indulging a curious Dm!

 

[delericho]

ok what is everything else? your opinion that is a sensible and RAW interpretation you havent given my ANY textual support to suggest you can do both a swift and an immediate in the same round...

1. The introductory passage of page 7 states "During a normal round..." That means there are exceptions.

2. The definition of a round, as given in the PHB is like that of "a week" - it can either mean "Sunday to Saturday", or it can mean "from now until next Friday". So, a round can mean "from the top of the Init order to the bottom", or it can mean "from my turn until my next turn".

The descriptions given for Swift and Immediate actions, then, clarify how #1 and #2 work out in practice. In particular:

#3. "If you use an immediate action when it isn't your turn, you can't use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn."

and

#4. It does not say that using a Swift action prevents you from using an Immediate action immediately after your turn ends.

So that's it. In the normal case, either:

A. On your turn you'll use a Standard, Move, and Swift action (or some other allowed combination)

OR

b. You'll use an Immediate action when it's not your turn, and then on your turn you'll use a Standard and Move action (or a Full-round action).

But there is a corner case where you use your full set of actions on your turn (per A) and then before the end of that round you find the need to use an Immediate action. And that's allowed - that just means you've used up your Swift action for your next turn. (It's allowed because of #3 and #4, and it fits with #1 because that means it's no longer a normal round.)

 

[kexmal]

Well, for starter's two swifts in a round is prohibited in the text of the swift action, and two immediates in one round is prohibited by the text of the immediate action, but out of all the restrictions explicitly mentioned for those actions (such as no immediate actions when flatfooted, etc), you never see anything prohibiting a swift action on your turn followed by an immediate action after your turn.

SRy again yes I do page 7 top left: you can also do a swift OR an immediate" That is why I am saying it all comes down to the inclusive or exclusive "or." Page 7 top left does say you can do only one OR the other NOT both (unless its inclusive)
seeminlgy most only read the immedaite action break down and FORGET about the explicit prohibition on action economy given

 

[Dandu]

SRy again yes I do page 7 top left: you can also do a swift OR an immediate" That is why I am saying it all comes down to the inclusive or exclusive "or." Page 7 top left does say you can do only one OR the other NOT both (unless its inclusive)
literally most only read the immedaite action break down and FORGET about the explicit prohibition on action economy given

Yeah, it'd be crazy to think of the relevant rules for actions being given in the section detailing the actions. Which explains why the majority of restrictions on actions are given in the sections detailing the actions.

 

[kexmal]

which as a note it is EASY in D&D to forget about explicit prohibitions and just go with what is in front of you so many times I ran into places where the rules cover ambiguous text BUT the rules are so far deep and hidden people forget to look BUT in this case rules compendium is there for us in terms of action economy

 

[NuSair]

Well, for starter's two swifts in a round is prohibited in the text of the swift action, and two immediates in one round is prohibited by the text of the immediate action, but out of all the restrictions explicitly mentioned for those actions (such as no immediate actions when flatfooted, etc), you never see anything prohibiting a swift action on your turn followed by an immediate action after your turn.

The more I look at it, the more I am partly inclined to agree with the original poster.

You say that there is nothing prohibiting an immediate action following a swift action after your turn. Here's the problem I have with that statement.

During a normal round, you can perform a standard action
and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.
You can also perform an immediate action or a swift action,
and as many free actions as your DM allows.

To me, that pretty well sums it up that DURING a normal round, if you take a swift action, that you CANNOT take an immediate action until the next round.

Which is why, to me, this hinges on when the actions reset. After your turn, or at the beginning of the next round.

 

[Dandu]

Which is why, to me, this hinges on when the actions reset. After your turn, or at the beginning of the next round.

A good point. I see the round ending after your turn. This means that using an immediate action after your turn eats into the swift action during your next turn because they would be part of the same round.