immediate and Swift actions

[kexmal]

i think rounds reseting is beside the poiunts rounds reset at end of INIT always thats the rules... Spell durations dont... the 'rounds' that spells last are tacked on at the beginning of when they are cast but put aside spell duration rounds... Rounds (with capitol "R") alwasy end at the last INIT count... no ambiguity. Turns start at the beginning of dare I say a PC or NPOCs turn lol they end at the end of said creatures turn... no ambiguity

 

[NuSair]

Would you say it possible that, for immediate and swift actions, the round resets after the end of an individual's turn? As I noted earlier, having a 1/round limitation on swift and immediate actions meshes well with immediate actions after a turn eating into the swift action for the next turn, because the space between and the next turn would be part of the same round.

(taking how I've been playing it for the past 2 years out, and trying to look at it from a new perspective- I've been playing you could take an immediate action after your turn during the same initiative round).

Possible? Sure.

After really digging through the books (and taking away from my game prep time this weekend... ugh) I have found that it really appears to be just up to an individuals interpretation of what a round means. I've been doing AoO based off a normal round (normal round meaning highest initiative to lowest initiative) and resetting at the start of the next normal round. Yet, actions, I've been doing that they reset after a players turn. Not really consistent now that I think about it.

Also, depending on how it's handled, it can really beef up or nerf celerity and greater celerity.

 

[delericho]

How is that relevant though what is this:

Presumably, your interpretation of the rules?

If you DONT take a swift you CAN take an immediate. If you Do take an immediate you CANNOT take a swift on the next turn... clear enough?

Well, yes. But neither is actually a difficult case - the rules spell both those out clearly.

But you can take another immediate AFTER your turn (meaning fduring the next round after you turn on initiative). but in what way does that proviso allow a swift and an immediate in the same round?

Suppose we have three combatants:

An Orc with initiative 13
A PC with initiative 8
A Goblin with initiative 5

We're in round 2 of the combat. Thus far, nobody has used either Swift or Immediate actions.

The Orc's turn comes (init 13). He takes his usual actions.
The PC's turn comes (init 8). He takes his usual actions - Standard, Move, Swift.
The Goblin's turn comes, during which the PC wants to take an Immediate action.

We then enter turn 3.

The Orc's turn comes (Init 13). He takes his usual actions.
The PC's turn comes (Init 8). He takes a Standard and Move action. He cannot take a Swift or Immediate action - he already took it.
The Goblin's turn comes.

Now, depending on how you apply the 'window' of the round, the PC either has one Swift/Immediate action per round, or he has two in round 2 and none in round 3.

For a similar example, consider attacks of opportunity:

Assume we have our same three combatants, that none of them have Combat Reflexes (or similar), and that none of them have used an AoO yet...

The Orc's turn comes (Init 13). He does something to provoke, so the PC takes an AoO.
The PC then acts (Init 8).
Then the Goblin's turn comes (Init 5). He also does something to provoke. Does the PC get to make an AoO?

The reason I ask is that the wording of the rule is exactly the same - the PC can make one AoO "per round".

i think rounds reseting is beside the poiunts rounds reset at end of INIT always thats the rules... Spell durations dont... the 'rounds' that spells last are tacked on at the beginning of when they are cast but put aside spell duration rounds... Rounds (with capitol "R") alwasy end at the last INIT count... no ambiguity. Turns start at the beginning of dare I say a PC or NPOCs turn lol they end at the end of said creatures turn... no ambiguity

If correct, that does definitively answer the question. So... can you provide a cite for that?

 

[NuSair]

Would you say it possible that, for immediate and swift actions, the round resets after the end of an individual's turn? As I noted earlier, having a 1/round limitation on swift and immediate actions meshes well with immediate actions after a turn eating into the swift action for the next turn, because the space between and the next turn would be part of the same round.

My only disagreement with that being, the one example given in the PHB that references something like that, refers to a round being from the start of a player/creatures turn until the start of their next turn. Meaning that if you took a swift action during your turn, by the text here:
During a normal round, you can perform a standard action
and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.
You can also perform an immediate action or a swift action,
and as many free actions as your DM allows.
...that you couldn't take an immediate action until after the start of your next turn.

And yes, I realize it says NORMAL round. But, it depends on how you define a normal round and then you go from there.

 

[delericho]

I've been doing AoO based off a normal round (normal round meaning highest initiative to lowest initiative) and resetting at the start of the next normal round. Yet, actions, I've been doing that they reset after a players turn. Not really consistent now that I think about it.

Heh.

As a thought...

Both AoO and Immediate actions have the clause that you cannot use them while flat-footed (barring Combat Reflexes of course). Surely that supports the "refresh after your turn" interpretation - it means that you start combat with no such actions available, you get your first turn (and so are not flat footed), and then they both reset for the first time and become available?

That would seem to give a nice consistent model of what's going on, right from the start of combat. (Of course, it's still just interpretation...)

Also, depending on how it's handled, it can really beef up or nerf celerity and greater celerity.

Ick. If ever there was an argument for dropping Swift/Immediate actions altogether...

 

[Dandu]

Ick. If ever there was an argument for dropping Swift/Immediate actions altogether...

Celerity does terrible things to the initiative order.

 

[NuSair]

Heh.

As a thought...

Both AoO and Immediate actions have the clause that you cannot use them while flat-footed (barring Combat Reflexes of course). Surely that supports the "refresh after your turn" interpretation - it means that you start combat with no such actions available, you get your first turn (and so are not flat footed), and then they both reset for the first time and become available?

That would seem to give a nice consistent model of what's going on, right from the start of combat. (Of course, it's still just interpretation...)



Ick. If ever there was an argument for dropping Swift/Immediate actions altogether...

If you base it off that, you are flat footed before your first regular turn in the initiative order. Which means you aren't flat footed once you start your turn, which means that the turn model goes from start of initiative to start of initiative.

It's 6am here and I stayed up all night (wife is going to kill me)- going to get a little sleep and hope she doesn't notice me crawling into bed. lol

 

[Dandu]

I'm looking at true strike. It lasts 1 round. You're suppose to cast it, and then attack someone the next round. If a round ended at the beginning of your turn you could never use that spell, so the round clearly ends at the end of your turn.

 

[Nagol]

I'm looking at true strike. It lasts 1 round. You're suppose to cast it, and then attack someone the next round. If a round ended at the beginning of your turn you could never use that spell, so the round clearly ends at the end of your turn.

That's because a Round isn't defined in a single way. From the text on The Combat Round under Actions in Combat:

For almost all purposes, there is no relevance to the end of a round or the beginning of a round. A round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

So a combat round runs from highest Init to lowest Init, but a character round runs from Init count to same Init count.

 

[delericho]

Giving credit where it's due for the moment, I felt it was one of the distinct improvements made in 4e that they explicitly formalised all this stuff - that they specified a set of events for the start of a character's turn, his actions, and then a set of events for the end of the turn. (And, IIRC, the round as a whole likewise.)