Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

[Nezkrul]

Improved Turning should really just add to your turning score, not your level. If it does then its a mistake on my part letting it scale infinitely because its too much of a game breaker.

I really wouldn't call something that everyone is immune to on their home plane "game-breaking".

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Nezkrul!

I really wouldn't call something that everyone is immune to on their home plane "game-breaking".

I would.

Its a one hit kill against beings more powerful than your own character...thats broken and illogical in anyone's viewpoint.

...and the whole 'immune on their home plane' thing is something we had to concoct and even then its still overpowered.

 

[Nezkrul]

I would.

Its a one hit kill against beings more powerful than your own character...thats broken and illogical in anyone's viewpoint.

Only a greater turning is a one hit kill, and only if your turning level is high enough to affect the target's hit die and only if you roll enough turning damage; and in order for all that to be possible you have to sink ALL of your character's resources into his one good trick. And even if he does one hit kill you, if you aren't on your home plane big whoop you go home and rejuvenate, see you again soon.

...and the whole 'immune on their home plane' thing is something we had to concoct and even then its still overpowered.

Makes clerics worthless to play in an Ascension game, their one good ability that you have to sink all your resources into improving so it works like I described is pointless if all you can do with it is send someone home from your plane. Especially when you consider that your book says all balors, pit fiends, and strong outsiders already have a divine template, so therefore with your change they are now immune to a cleric's planar turning epic feat... which means there is no incentive to play a cleric at all if you are going to adventure in the planes and use Ascension. Without Ascension it isn't broken to one shot bad guys. Look at what you can do without Ascension with Wizard, Sorcerer, and Druid... seriously

 

[DamienWilacoth]

I tend to agree with Nezkrul on this one - by your logic, Krusty, anything that lets you even fight enemies above your level is broken and needs to be amended. I heartily disagree on this. To me, careful preparation to tackle a being that would normally slaughter you is wonderful. If you remember Paradox42's accounts from his Immortal game, his players often did this, evolving the game from a sheer number crunch into one that was highly focused on story.

In any case, an equal CR threat often turns into a joke, which merely turns the game into a grindfest so that the PCs can reach an XP/quintessence level where they are 'allowed' to use the cool powers on the hard bosses, which maybe the awesome moment that they were looking for all night.

There's also something to be said, as Nezkrul as already mentioned, for dedication to an ideal. Fantasy is full of such stories of men and women so dedicated to the idea of doing one thing that they were able to accomplish feats that were considered impossible by their more multifaceted peers.

Likewise, turning is quite different from banishing. Banishing shouldn't happen on your home plane: Turning should. Considering what turning is (channeling positive energy (negitive energy for rebuking) in order to either cow, command, damage, or kill an opponent (usually undead). In that way, how is it different than a Wizard's Fear, Dominate Monster, Fireball, or Undeath to Death spells? It's not. According to flavor, they're both using the primal forces of the universe to open up a can on the opponent, except that turning/rebuking is very specific in what it can affect and do and magic is incredibly general as well as power. Don't gimp something that's already gimped, Krusty. That destroys game balance as surely as something that's overpowered.

In that way, turning's really no different than a Wizard shelling out a generic damage dealing spell for a one-shot kill. There certainly aren't any artificial rules to gimp that...

That being said, shouldn't the Sun domain's Demi-deity power only apply to undead? In that case, Nezkrul, I'd say that you're misinterpreting things: the Sun domain acts as the enemy of undead. It's out of flavor to have those powers apply to demons/devils as well. Now, if it were an undead, as well as a demon... *looks at Orcus*

According to divinity levels, your double Sun domain Demi-Deity should *just* be able to affect Orcus (Lesser Deity, unless it was changed when I wasn't looking).

Basically, you should still have to account for turn resistance in outsiders. That being said, there's nothing preventing you from creating a divine ability that increases your ability to affect outsiders with turning/rebuking.

*looks back over the list* ...and that's my thoughts on the matter. Whether or not you choose to agree with me is your option, but I hope you at least consider my thoughts in relation to your own arguments.

 

[Nezkrul]

That being said, shouldn't the Sun domain's Demi-deity power only apply to undead? In that case, Nezkrul, I'd say that you're misinterpreting things: the Sun domain acts as the enemy of undead. It's out of flavor to have those powers apply to demons/devils as well.

Well, thats the point of the Planar Turning epic feat, it allows the epic cleric to now use his channeled positive or negative energy to affect outsiders. The way I see it is the feat allows him to use his energy to disrupt or harness the energy of outsiders in addition to disrupting or harnessing the energy of undead. So, I believe that the demi-deity power of the sun portfolio (ignores all turn resistance) would apply to any creature you can legally turn, without the epic feat you're right, it only affects undead, but with it he can now affect diametrically opposed outsiders with his energy.

 

[DamienWilacoth]

Well, thats the point of the Planar Turning epic feat, it allows the epic cleric to now use his channeled positive or negative energy to affect outsiders. The way I see it is the feat allows him to use his energy to disrupt or harness the energy of outsiders in addition to disrupting or harnessing the energy of undead. So, I believe that the demi-deity power of the sun portfolio (ignores all turn resistance) would apply to any creature you can legally turn, without the epic feat you're right, it only affects undead, but with it he can now affect diametrically opposed outsiders with his energy.

True, but 3.0 material and Ascension is rife with vague areas and questionable rule interactions - mostly because of a lack of doublechecking on clear and precisewording. And I agree with you on the mechanics of how Planar Turning works - I just think that the Sun portfolio is intended to work as an anti-Undead platform, so to take advantage of an ill-defined ability slightly perverts the flavor of the ability in question. After all, if you check the corresponding Double Sun ability for demideity, it's unquestioningly referring to undead being destroyed if turned.

It makes sense that you'd have to jump through extra hoops to deal with outsider's massive turn resistance - outsiders are vastly more powerful than undead. But, like I said before, that's what you can do with making new divine abilities.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Only a greater turning is a one hit kill,

...and what are the limitations on using a greater turning instead of a turning?

and only if your turning level is high enough to affect the target's hit die and only if you roll enough turning damage; and in order for all that to be possible you have to sink ALL of your character's resources into his one good trick. And even if he does one hit kill you, if you aren't on your home plane big whoop you go home and rejuvenate, see you again soon.

Would you be comfortable if the DM used the same power against the players?

Makes clerics worthless to play in an Ascension game, their one good ability that you have to sink all your resources into improving so it works like I described is pointless if all you can do with it is send someone home from your plane. Especially when you consider that your book says all balors, pit fiends, and strong outsiders already have a divine template, so therefore with your change they are now immune to a cleric's planar turning epic feat... which means there is no incentive to play a cleric at all if you are going to adventure in the planes and use Ascension. Without Ascension it isn't broken to one shot bad guys. Look at what you can do without Ascension with Wizard, Sorcerer, and Druid... seriously

Understandable. I still think its broken but if the game already leans towards broken-ness then its probably no worse than a hundred other builds. So why not I suppose.

Luckily I am not the DM so I don't have to try and create a balanced/challenging game for your character party.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I tend to agree with Nezkrul on this one - by your logic, Krusty, anything that lets you even fight enemies above your level is broken and needs to be amended.

Its not a matter of fighting enemies above your level, its one-hit killing enemies above your level.

The question is would it be okay to use that power on the players?

I heartily disagree on this. To me, careful preparation to tackle a being that would normally slaughter you is wonderful. If you remember Paradox42's accounts from his Immortal game, his players often did this, evolving the game from a sheer number crunch into one that was highly focused on story.

I think the difference here is that Paradox42 wasn't playing a demigod level game though.

The higher you go the more the game devolves/evolves (?) into going first and unleashing 'the nukes'

In any case, an equal CR threat often turns into a joke, which merely turns the game into a grindfest so that the PCs can reach an XP/quintessence level where they are 'allowed' to use the cool powers on the hard bosses, which maybe the awesome moment that they were looking for all night.

If an entertaining boss fight is 'clicks finger's - Boss dies' then fire away. As paradox42 noted, when you get to this point then the combat itself takes second stage to the story/planning/prep.

There's also something to be said, as Nezkrul as already mentioned, for dedication to an ideal. Fantasy is full of such stories of men and women so dedicated to the idea of doing one thing that they were able to accomplish feats that were considered impossible by their more multifaceted peers.

I wholeheartedly agree that those dedicated down one path should be explicitly powerful in that area. But again it all comes back to one-hit killing.

Then again maybe I have been out of the 3E loop too long and that was what it was always about anyway...?

Likewise, turning is quite different from banishing. Banishing shouldn't happen on your home plane: Turning should. Considering what turning is (channeling positive energy (negitive energy for rebuking) in order to either cow, command, damage, or kill an opponent (usually undead). In that way, how is it different than a Wizard's Fear, Dominate Monster, Fireball, or Undeath to Death spells? It's not. According to flavor, they're both using the primal forces of the universe to open up a can on the opponent, except that turning/rebuking is very specific in what it can affect and do and magic is incredibly general as well as power. Don't gimp something that's already gimped, Krusty. That destroys game balance as surely as something that's overpowered.

I'm not gimping anything. I wish Nezkrul the best of luck. He did ask my opinion though.

In that way, turning's really no different than a Wizard shelling out a generic damage dealing spell for a one-shot kill. There certainly aren't any artificial rules to gimp that...

I suppose.

*looks back over the list* ...and that's my thoughts on the matter. Whether or not you choose to agree with me is your option, but I hope you at least consider my thoughts in relation to your own arguments.

I'm actually really interested in hearing how Nezkrul's campaign develops assuming he keeps the powers (as written) intact. It would be nice to see how the DM challenges the party (or doesn't).

 

[Nezkrul]

New Divine Ability:

Potent Planar Channeling

Prereq's: Channel Positive Energy (or Negative), Planar Turning Epic Feat, Cha 30, Wis 30

Benefit: You may ignore an Outsider's turn resistance derived from its spell resistance when you attempt to turn or rebuke it (or destroy or command).

Ok, and Sorry krust for me sounding kinda hostile, didn't mean to. But I will answer your questions.

...and what are the limitations on using a greater turning instead of a turning?

Having the Sun domain, and/or having at least 1 level in the Radiant Servant of _insert Sun Deity_ PrC, or having an effective turning level of at least double the target's hit dice. My example character has all 10 levels of the PrC, the other 30 in cleric. I don't think the PrC forces a roleplaying penalty onto you once you become a deity yourself, I think it simply helps define what kind of deity you will become, since not every cleric is built like yours.

Would you be comfortable if the DM used the same power against the players?

Yes, all is fair in love and war (and DnD). What ever the players can do, the GM can do (and do it better). The only thing stopping the GM from making the game not fun for the players is the fact that he might not have players anymore. But, IMO, the GM has every right to use an evil cleric with the new divine ability I put up top, who did exactly what I did in building himself, the only thing is he WON'T have the Radiant Servant ability to have more than 1 greater turning attempt every day, so that would by my character's advantage. He likely won't even have ANY greater turning attempts, depends on if an evil character can take the Sun domain.

In this case, I would call that evil cleric my Archnemesis, and a very nice and indepth story or roleplaying experience would likely ensue, since neither of us want to risk losing initiative against the other on our home plane. We would both likely research powers that would either make us resistant to turning or immune, and then we may challenge eachother, however such research wouldn't protect our friends/minions so those would still get toasted... if we ever had a showdown, it would likely be on neutral ground (more often than not).

Understandable. I still think its broken but if the game already leans towards broken-ness then its probably no worse than a hundred other builds. So why not I suppose.

Epic is all about being broken, and then if you acquire deific power, then well, yah. I hope you don't expect your players to build gimped characters just for the sake of roleplaying such that you have to modify encounters so they can roleplay and not die to the rollplay.

Its not a matter of fighting enemies above your level, its one-hit killing enemies above your level.

The question is would it be okay to use that power on the players?

Wizards do this from level 7 and up. Sorcerers 8 and up. Druids can do it from 9 and up, and Clerics can do it from 9 and up. No deific power required. Unless of course, what you mean when you say "above your level" is actually "vastly above your character's level where he should just be able to one shot you", to which I say ORLY? I can't one shot him but it's ok for him to one shot me?

I'm ok with the GM running his game however he wants, adapt and overcome his challenges, even if they are hard. It's how you define your character as he advances, if he had the easy street the whole time he'll be a show off know-it-all that thinks he can beat anyone.... likewise if he had gotten his arse beat at every turn, sometimes even ended up dead and luckily got brought back (sometimes more than once) he would be a cautious, scrutinizing, shrewd tactician whenever he encountered something or someone he has never seen before.

The higher you go the more the game devolves/evolves (?) into going first and unleashing 'the nukes'

again this is something that has been happening since level 7 for the wizard, etc... One hit kills are 99% better than just damage dealing spells, and Save or Screw'ds or the Word series of spells are just as good as one hit kills because they let the party win easily. Magic is powerful, you just gotta deal with it, it's part of the game.

I'm actually really interested in hearing how Nezkrul's campaign develops assuming he keeps the powers (as written) intact. It would be nice to see how the DM challenges the party (or doesn't).

I'm going to suggest a saving throw to resist the destruction, something along the lines of 10 +1/2 levels in turning classes +CHA mod +Divine Rank; or you could call it temporary destruction on a creatures homeplane since all it is really doing is using positive or negative energy to disrupt the manifestation - not actually destroy it utterly... that would still allow the defeated to rejuvenate (and so it would be nigh useless against Sidereals and higher, but at that point combat shouldn't be occurring)

I was looking for opinions because I was thinking I had found a powerful way to deal with evil deities and other nasties. Looks like I did, but like I said earlier it requires all of the character's resources to work; and that trade-off to me makes it ok. The hard part is getting enough turning damage. You need a really high charisma score, the glory domain, and the empower turning feat to make it work. Not to mention the turning level.

And he can't do it to all outsiders, only evil ones, so if some of them potential enemies get smart, they'll start putting up contingent atonement's with their wishes or alter reality ability strictly for shifting their alignment to neutral whenever they get attacked by a holy sun cleric from on high

Which brings me to a few rules questions. Does a deity's wishes/day ability or their alter reality ability cost them XP or QP?

When you become a hero-deity (or higher), do you spend money/xp/qp to gain your artifacts? how does one go about acquiring them? For instance, how does a Fighter based hero-deity get his 4 artifacts?

I'm sure this one has been asked before but what is the level adjustment of the divinity templates? Is it just the ECL bump? Cuz after making a simple Hero-Deity I was kinda sad that it would now suddenly take this guy like 30 times as long to gain his next class level (based off ECL bump being LA).

That's all for now.

 

[Alzrius]

It's discussions like this that make me think of Pathfinder as "3.5, but better" since it doesn't have any sort of greater turning where a successful turning attempt automatically destroys undead creatures.