Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

[DamienWilacoth]

I have a few questions concerning turning and deity templates.

Every template turns the character into an outsider. Does that leave every deity vulnerable to a Planar Turning epic feat cleric? I built a quasi-deity level 20 Cleric / 10 Radiant Servant focused on being able to turn undead, and after all bonuses, equipment, and feats are applied, his effective turning level before rolling his maxxed turning check is 46, which means he automatically can turn up to 50 HD creatures. The issue I have is if he spends a greater turn attempt, he destroys them if he rolls higher than minimum turning damage (all factors added, he's rolling 3d6+30 x1.5 for turning damage)

This character would literally, IIRC, have the ability to walk into Demogorgon's lair in the Abyss, initiate combat with him, and blast him out of existence with a standard action that doesn't allow a save or resistance. (Demogorgon being the 50hd version they constantly cite in the IH Ascension)

Is this fair? Balanced? Ok? I mean would you guys consider allowing this kind of toasting power in your games? Being able to instagib all evil outsiders and undead is pretty cool so long as they don't have too many hit dice.

Also, if I have Nescient divine ability, and I take the "end" feat in a feat chain, and that feat is required by another divine or cosmic ability but said ability also has all the other feats in the chain as prereqs... does the Nescient able'd feat circumvent those prereqs since I have the "end" feat in the chain required by the ability?

Can someone PM an example of how to do the 4 artifacts for a PC? for instance, where do they come from, how do they come to be, what would be good examples, are they just simply super strong epic magic items?

Don't forget that all deities get their divine bonus as a turn resistance bonus. As well, you need to remember that Demogorgon has additional turn resistance equal to half his spell resistance for the purposes of planar turning. Thus, as a Lesser Deity, Demogorgon would be treated as having the equivalent of 95 HD.

...Planar Turning still sound overpowered? XD

No - if you have only the end feat in that chain for a divine or cosmic ability, it does not qualify. The only exception is having Divine or Cosmic Nescience.

In truth, the artifacts should be as unique as each deity, relating to each's past and personality. The rest of your questions are actually already covered by Ascension, for the most part.

Apologies to Krusty, if I'm stepping on your toes by answering. Feel free to correct anything I got wrong.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Nezkrul!

I have a few questions concerning turning and deity templates.

Fire away...and thanks to Damien for his answers already.

Every template turns the character into an outsider. Does that leave every deity vulnerable to a Planar Turning epic feat cleric?

Well (and I could be wrong here...in which case I am still morally right) surely Planar Turning will only work when you encounter an outsider (or in this case a deity) outside their native plane?

I built a quasi-deity level 20 Cleric / 10 Radiant Servant focused on being able to turn undead, and after all bonuses, equipment, and feats are applied, his effective turning level before rolling his maxxed turning check is 46, which means he automatically can turn up to 50 HD creatures. The issue I have is if he spends a greater turn attempt, he destroys them if he rolls higher than minimum turning damage (all factors added, he's rolling 3d6+30 x1.5 for turning damage)

This character would literally, IIRC, have the ability to walk into Demogorgon's lair in the Abyss, initiate combat with him, and blast him out of existence with a standard action that doesn't allow a save or resistance. (Demogorgon being the 50hd version they constantly cite in the IH Ascension)

As I said above, there is no way Planar Turning should work on any creature on its home plane...at least not in my opinion.

As Damien also added though, they would additionally get their divine bonus against this even encountered outside their native plane.

Is this fair? Balanced? Ok? I mean would you guys consider allowing this kind of toasting power in your games? Being able to instagib all evil outsiders and undead is pretty cool so long as they don't have too many hit dice.

Its not fair the way you are playing it. Sounds WAY broken.

Also, if I have Nescient divine ability, and I take the "end" feat in a feat chain, and that feat is required by another divine or cosmic ability but said ability also has all the other feats in the chain as prereqs... does the Nescient able'd feat circumvent those prereqs since I have the "end" feat in the chain required by the ability?

It means you no longer need feats as any prerequisite. You may still need Divine Abilities or somesuch (of course there's always Divine Nescience and so forth).

Can someone PM an example of how to do the 4 artifacts for a PC? for instance, where do they come from, how do they come to be, what would be good examples, are they just simply super strong epic magic items?

I think every monster in the Epic Bestiary with artifacts has four (the exception being Alabaster whose six artifacts are reduced in power to compensate).

I think I also have four listed at the end of my revised Fighter and Barbarian classes (scroll to the bottom of the pages):

Immortality
Immortality

Artifacts sort of are Epic Items (although I had plans to make them more than that..which never panned out) except that they are virtually indestructible and unaffected by anti-magic.

 

[Nezkrul]

K, I messed up with my build I told you about, its actually a demi-deity (i get those two mixed up) and with his sun portfolio he ignores all turn resistance.

I don't see anywhere in the rules that states I can't turn you (or destroy you with a greater turning attempt) if you're on your home plane. I understand that there would probably be dire ramifications for me simply walking through each layer hell and instagibbing the devil on top of each one, or going through each important abyssal layer and toasting their respective leaders.

also, is there an expanded turning check table or is it always once you have a +21 bonus to your check you just simply turn creatures with 4 more HD than your turning level?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Nezkrul!

K, I messed up with my build I told you about, its actually a demi-deity (i get those two mixed up) and with his sun portfolio he ignores all turn resistance.

Okay.

I don't see anywhere in the rules that states I can't turn you (or destroy you with a greater turning attempt) if you're on your home plane. I understand that there would probably be dire ramifications for me simply walking through each layer hell and instagibbing the devil on top of each one, or going through each important abyssal layer and toasting their respective leaders.

also, is there an expanded turning check table or is it always once you have a +21 bonus to your check you just simply turn creatures with 4 more HD than your turning level?

I think somewhere along the way the various abilities and bonuses you have added simply make this ability WAY overpowered.

I mean the best you should be able to turn is 34 HD

The best you should therefore be able to destroy is 17 HD.

That seems fair to me although I still don't believe you should be able to turn anything on their home plane.

 

[Alzrius]

Bear in mind that Planar Turning is a 3.0 feat, written before 3.5 invented the Extraplanar and Native subtypes.

I'd rule that Planar Turning only works against Outsiders with the Extraplanar subtype, which they won't have on their native plane (or any of the Transitive Planes, for that matter).

also, is there an expanded turning check table or is it always once you have a +21 bonus to your check you just simply turn creatures with 4 more HD than your turning level?

There isn't in the epic section of the SRD, nor in the Immortal's Handbook: Ascension.

Also, if I have Nescient divine ability, and I take the "end" feat in a feat chain, and that feat is required by another divine or cosmic ability but said ability also has all the other feats in the chain as prereqs... does the Nescient able'd feat circumvent those prereqs since I have the "end" feat in the chain required by the ability?

No.

If you take the last feat in a "feat chain" via Nescient, that's good for that feat, but won't satisfy higher-strata powers (e.g. divine powers, cosmic powers, etc.) that list the full feat chain as prerequisites. You'll either need to take the rest of the chain, or take something like Divine Nescience to gain the higher-strata power.

Bear in mind that the only boost to turning that the Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC grants you is extra greater turning (at 1st level) so that you can do a greater turning (which destroys the undead that would normally have been turned) a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. You still can't successfully turn undead with more than your total cleric/RSoP levels +4 on your best turn check.

Also, it sounds like your demigod is still taking orders from Pelor.

 

[Impeesa]

Artifacts sort of are Epic Items (although I had plans to make them more than that..which never panned out) except that they are virtually indestructible and unaffected by anti-magic.

Y'know, I had always meant to ask about that... I seem to recall older discussions where people were saying it was a huge boost to just trade their artifacts for bonus divine abilities, and you said it'd be a lot more even once we had the full artifact rules. Sadly, I never did get around to having a peek at the epic bestiary, but it doesn't sound like there were any particular rules in there other than examples. Did you ever release anything along those lines? Or have usable notes that may yet see release?

 

[Nezkrul]

regular turning = fear effect, so if the affected have immunity to fear or mind affecting effects they ignore the turning; I don't see why ANYONE should be immune just because to that effect. After all, clerics have 19 dead levels, thats their one and only cool ability.

In the IHA, the epic feat Improved Turning increases your effective turning level by +2 and stacks with itself to infinity... so my demi-deity with 40 cleric levels has ALOT of this feat and planar turning, along with glory domain (+1d6 damage) and a very high charisma score, so 3d6+mods+cha mod x1.5 = a lot, especially when my effective turning level is +2 per epic feat slot I devote to it.. that makes sun portfolio awesome when you ignore all turn resistance.

I would give the enemy a save against the effect, not make them completely immune to the one cool ability clerics ever get, cuz once a cleric is a deity he sux, his magic is pretty much worthless other than to heal and buff.

 

[Alzrius]

Y'know, I had always meant to ask about that... I seem to recall older discussions where people were saying it was a huge boost to just trade their artifacts for bonus divine abilities, and you said it'd be a lot more even once we had the full artifact rules. Sadly, I never did get around to having a peek at the epic bestiary, but it doesn't sound like there were any particular rules in there other than examples. Did you ever release anything along those lines? Or have usable notes that may yet see release?

I know I wasn't the one asked this, but insofar as I'm aware, U_K never did release anything beyond what's in the two IH 3.5 supplements, the unfinished Gods & Monsters, and his website that featured divine artifacts.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Impeesa mate!

Y'know, I had always meant to ask about that... I seem to recall older discussions where people were saying it was a huge boost to just trade their artifacts for bonus divine abilities, and you said it'd be a lot more even once we had the full artifact rules. Sadly, I never did get around to having a peek at the epic bestiary, but it doesn't sound like there were any particular rules in there other than examples. Did you ever release anything along those lines? Or have usable notes that may yet see release?

As Alzrius was kind enough to mention, this was never really expanded upon. It was meant to be in the Grimoire book which never saw release.

Basically the plan was to have Artifacts gain their own levels and be sentient and aware. I'm relatively happy with the way 4E handles artifacts though although that might need tweaking for epic/immortal tier play.

Sorry you never got to see the Epic Bestiary...its way better than Ascension (especially the print version of the Bestiary)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again Nezkrul!

regular turning = fear effect, so if the affected have immunity to fear or mind affecting effects they ignore the turning; I don't see why ANYONE should be immune just because to that effect. After all, clerics have 19 dead levels, thats their one and only cool ability.

In the IHA, the epic feat Improved Turning increases your effective turning level by +2 and stacks with itself to infinity... so my demi-deity with 40 cleric levels has ALOT of this feat and planar turning, along with glory domain (+1d6 damage) and a very high charisma score, so 3d6+mods+cha mod x1.5 = a lot, especially when my effective turning level is +2 per epic feat slot I devote to it.. that makes sun portfolio awesome when you ignore all turn resistance.

I would give the enemy a save against the effect, not make them completely immune to the one cool ability clerics ever get, cuz once a cleric is a deity he sux, his magic is pretty much worthless other than to heal and buff.

Improved Turning should really just add to your turning score, not your level. If it does then its a mistake on my part letting it scale infinitely because its too much of a game breaker.