Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

You from 3-5 responses to me earlier.

You are confusing someone who can alter reality with someone who has the alter reality ability in my book.

Even if you take these reality manipulators from the comics at face value and convert them to D&D 3.5, if you throw all their eggs in one basket and give them the alter reality power and nothing else then for their stupidity they deserve to get pimp slapped by someone with the Abrogate ability.

Wanda is a high level sorceress regardless of whether she has the alter reality ability or not.

But why would they use various powers? When they can just use an item?

So that they can use that artifact slot for something else perhaps.

True, but unless they attacker has that special ability to make themselves immune to they're own DMF, it would be a double edge sword.

Of course they would have that if yhey use it as an attacking option, just like some one with Abrogate has that as an attacking option.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Without involving myself in the rest of these arguments, many of which look suspiciously familiar to me (as a longtime reader of IH threads), I do have to respond to this comment:

This is an example of how playtesting can really, really help test a system's assumptions. Character optimizers (and to a lesser extent, any and all players with an inclination towards powergaming) invariably use as many items as they can to boost ability scores and saves. The rules for pricing magic items encourage this, because the cost for adding a second ability to an item which already does one thing is doubled. Therefore, by splitting your ability boost such that each item only boosts one ability score, and that is its sole ability, you get more bang for your gold piece.

My players, who have all recently gained divine PCs, have been going out of their way to figure out how to split their bonuses among the four artifacts so as to maximize the value. Two of them were trying to get different types of bonuses to ability scores (i.e. beyond just an enhancement bonus) so the bonuses would stack. They eventually settled on not bothering so much with item boosting to ability scores, because they determined that the math was better if they used Epic spell buffs instead. They just use artifacts to massively boost Spellcraft, and then build on that. This is not to say they aren't still milking their artifacts for the highest possible ability boosts, they just aren't relying on them exclusively anymore.

Those epic spell boosts are broken. I suggest a +2 bonus (to a single ability score) per spell level via metamagic. Though even then buffing is such an annoyance it should definately be limited to one spell per character or something like that.

And on the topic of buffing...

This has me curious: which powers? Using my own house rules for minimum HD compared with divine powers, wherein a Demigod needs to have 100 HD to reach the Demigod level, it would be difficult to do unless you use (and more to the point, abuse) Epic magic with the Fortify seed; I can't even imagine how a deity with only 30 hit dice is going to accomplish the same thing.

Starting with an 18 base, assuming a +2 racial bonus, putting all ability points from level up into Strength, and getting a +5 inherent bonus gives you 32, and the template itself brings that to 44. A mix of Legendary Strength and 2-for-1 tradeoffs from the other ability scores can make up the rest quite easily.

Trade offs unnecessary, you could use a few epic feats (Great Strength) as well.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Adslahnit dude!

Even if there are no such things as immortals of unique races, there are cases where the base race of an immortal is a complete guess, or where the base race is something that hasn't been statted up before. Take Atropus, for example; you could make a case for a genius loci being the base, but a genius loci is a 70 HD ooze with no listed advancement. Take the 320 HD first one Death (as statted up by Alzrius) as another example; what would his base race be, and why is his manifestation Gargantuan (this question is more directed towards Alzrius)?

Whether a monster has advancement 'rules' or not built in to its stat block is irrelevant for the purposes of advancing it.

I sort of don't understand the question here, its sort of like you are asking why are giant's giant?

In your system, aren't the HD/size advancements for creatures with natural physiologies replaced by the minimum/maximum HD rules in the Epic Bestiary? So a minotaur with 6-7 racial HD would be Large, a minotaur with 8-15 racial HD would be Huge, a minotaur with 16-31 racial HD would be Gargantuan, and so on and so forth.

In many cases the question becomes why are these creatures still growing. If most adult Minotaurs are large then the only huge Minotaurs are going to be some sort of (Dire templated?) mutations.

Wouldn't this mean that a minotaur immortal with 20 outsider HD would be Gargantuan, and a minotaur immortal with 100 outsider HD would be Titanic? Or is there a size limitation for how big your outsider HD can make you?

A minotaur immortal will be the same size as its mortal counterpart unless it has taken some Divine Immensity divine abilities.

I noticed that there was a jump in size from ophanim (Gargantuan at 88 HD) to cherubim (Macro-Fine at 133 HD).

Its a staggered doubling (or rather a staggered halving round down) every two jumps.

SO the Cherubim has double the Hit Dice of the Kyriotates, the Ophanim has double the Hit Dice of the Malakim, etc.

Are you saying that sidereals can be at the maximum size category that their outsider HD allows?

Technically they can be any size they want as long as they have enough Divine Immensity abilities taken. But only an immortal idiot would take so many Divine Immensity abilities that it gives them a negative to-hit penalty.

By the way, it's only now I notice that the HD for each type of angel matches perfectly with the concept of them being avatars and aspects of the 266 HD Metatron. Very clever, I must say.

I have my moments.

Well, I think it would make sense for them to count as long quadrupeds for the purpose of space, reach, carrying capacity, and base land speed. A cube or sphere obviously takes up only as much space as its diameter, a cube or sphere is theoretically even more stable than a quadruped (hence the "quadruped" carrying capacity), and they've got a lot of surface area for wings or other methods of flight (hence the "quadruped" base land speed, which is then tripled for land speed).

I'd just stick to that principle to determine its movement rate.

Is there any way for an immortal to have built-in flight other than Sky Walker or Abnormality (Wings)? Sky Walker is easily shot down with the Nullification cosmic ability, and wings on a planetoid-like immortal seem a bit silly. Although I guess you could take away the actual "wings" and make Abnormality (Wings) give the immortal some other method of flight.

A planetoid sized immortal is hardly like to 'fall' anywhere. It exists in space. I imagine it propels itself naturally, perhaps some sort of gravitic propulsion, telekinesis or somesuch.

Would a sidereal giant like Surtur count as "monstrous", or would it have to be less humanoid and more quadrupedal?

Monstrous could be a vampire, a ghoul and so forth. It doesn't require four legs. Biting for bipeds (those with normal sized jaws/mouths), you could argue would require a successful grapple before they could bite. I don't remember ever seeing a movie or tv show where a vampire actually bit someone without grabbing them first.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Whether a monster has advancement 'rules' or not built in to its stat block is irrelevant for the purposes of advancing it.

Then how do you determine the base size category of an immortal before any Divine Immensities are taken into account? I'm looking for some clear-cut rules on this, because the base size category of an immortal seems to be arbitrarily eyeballed off whatever seems right.

I sort of don't understand the question here, its sort of like you are asking why are giant's giant?

No, I'm asking how the base size category of an immortal is determined. I'm asking Alzrius as to why death is specifically Gargantuan size, and how that size category was figured out.

Its a staggered doubling (or rather a staggered halving round down) every two jumps.

SO the Cherubim has double the Hit Dice of the Kyriotates, the Ophanim has double the Hit Dice of the Malakim, etc.

I was asking about the size categories, not the HD. Elohims are Large, malakims are Huge, kyriotates and ophanims are Gargantuan, and cherubims and seraphims are Macro-Fine. Is the sudden jump from Gargantuan to Macro-Fine because sidereals can be of the biggest size category that their HD qualifies them for (even before any Divine Immensities)? Would that make Metatron's default size category Macro-Diminutive then, because Metatron has 266 outsider HD, and being naturally Macro-Diminutive requires a minimum of 256 HD?

Technically they can be any size they want as long as they have enough Divine Immensity abilities taken. But only an immortal idiot would take so many Divine Immensity abilities that it gives them a negative to-hit penalty.

But an immortal obviously has a "default" size category, the size category used for when Divine Immensity cannot be applied. After all, Divine Immensity can get disabled by Dead Zone or Divine Nullification, both of which are fairly solid transcendental abilities. This is why determining the default size category of an immortal (before any Divine Immensities are taken into account) is important.

A planetoid sized immortal is hardly like to 'fall' anywhere. It exists in space. I imagine it propels itself naturally, perhaps some sort of gravitic propulsion, telekinesis or somesuch.

A much smaller spherical immortal would have to roll itself around on the ground if it didn't have a fly speed though.

Monstrous could be a vampire, a ghoul and so forth. It doesn't require four legs. Biting for bipeds (those with normal sized jaws/mouths), you could argue would require a successful grapple before they could bite. I don't remember ever seeing a movie or tv show where a vampire actually bit someone without grabbing them first.

Half-dragons get a natural bite attack that they can use even while not grappling. They can even make a bite as a secondary natural attack while making a full attack with a weapon.

 

[Alzrius]

I'm asking Alzrius as to why death is specifically Gargantuan size, and how that size category was figured out.

Gargantuan was the smallest size I could make Death, since he's a First One and that's the minimum size demanded by the template. I wanted to make Death a Medium-sized creature, but that was out, so I went with making it as close to that as I could.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Gargantuan was the smallest size I could make Death, since he's a First One and that's the minimum size demanded by the template. I wanted to make Death a Medium-sized creature, but that was out, so I went with making it as close to that as I could.

I see. That makes sense. By the way, I noticed a little discrepancy in the adventure ideas:

Mid-Cosmic: The sundering of a nearby time lord has released enough power to free Life and Death from their bonds! The two immediately do battle, and Death slays Life itself. Now, the PCs must track down the artifact known as the Vitalizer to help Life's Avatar, which has gone into hiding, ascend before all life in the multiverse dies.

Rectify (Su): Those that Death kills are treated as though they never existed to begin with, retconning them out of existence.

The double Death portfolio gives you super-Rectify in the sense that it doesn't require you to kill your enemy with Astro [Effect]. I'd say that that's on the level of an omnific ability.

 

[WarDragon]

I meant Great Strength, not Legendary, sorry.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Then how do you determine the base size category of an immortal before any Divine Immensities are taken into account? I'm looking for some clear-cut rules on this, because the base size category of an immortal seems to be arbitrarily eyeballed off whatever seems right.

They are always medium. Then modify as appropriate.

No, I'm asking how the base size category of an immortal is determined.

If you are creating/designing the immortal then you determine the size.

I was asking about the size categories, not the HD. Elohims are Large, malakims are Huge, kyriotates and ophanims are Gargantuan, and cherubims and seraphims are Macro-Fine. Is the sudden jump from Gargantuan to Macro-Fine because sidereals can be of the biggest size category that their HD qualifies them for (even before any Divine Immensities)?

The immortal angels follow the +50% rule, while the sidereal angels follow the 'HD x2 = feet' rule.

Would that make Metatron's default size category Macro-Diminutive then, because Metatron has 266 outsider HD, and being naturally Macro-Diminutive requires a minimum of 256 HD?

Yes.

But an immortal obviously has a "default" size category, the size category used for when Divine Immensity cannot be applied. After all, Divine Immensity can get disabled by Dead Zone or Divine Nullification, both of which are fairly solid transcendental abilities. This is why determining the default size category of an immortal (before any Divine Immensities are taken into account) is important.

Even if you don't use Divine Immensity and make the immorta a certain size you are still indirectly using Divine Immensity.

A much smaller spherical immortal would have to roll itself around on the ground if it didn't have a fly speed though.

Indeed.

Half-dragons get a natural bite attack that they can use even while not grappling. They can even make a bite as a secondary natural attack while making a full attack with a weapon.

Half-dragons have dragon-like heads and relatively large jaws compared to humans and goblinoids.

 

[Farealmer3]

Wanda is a high level sorceress regardless of whether she has the alter reality ability or not.

And Jaspers?

So that they can use that artifact slot for something else perhaps.

Why? Unless the grimoire powers are tons better than the ascension ones, characters are better off using at least one item for a pure stat boost if it is truly their "greatest ability".

Of course they would have that if yhey use it as an attacking option, just like some one with Abrogate has that as an attacking option.

Big difference, Dead Magic is like cosmic nullification it takes out an entire line of abilites. While abrogate only does one. If abrogate it going to stay competetive it should cripple that one ability absolutly. Otherwise theirs no point in taking it over the dead magic power.

Also have you heard of Rifts?

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

They are always medium. Then modify as appropriate.

Even if you don't use Divine Immensity and make the immorta a certain size you are still indirectly using Divine Immensity.

So basically, an immortal starts off as Medium, and then he can spend X divine ability slots to permanently increase his size by X size categories (though he must meet the minimum HD to "naturally" be of a given size category), thus indirectly using "Divine Immensity". For example, a 100 HD greater deity starts off at Medium, and can spend 5 divine ability slots to make himself naturally and non-supernaturally Titanic size, though he couldn't spend 6 divine ability slots to make himself Macro-Fine because he doesn't have 128 outsider HD. Tetrad high lords and above can break the minimum HD rules though, but only to meet the minimum size category as dictated by their template.

The balancing factor is that taking actual Divine Immensities lets you resize yourself as needed (taking 4 divine immensities as a Medium creature lets you resize yourself anywhere from Fine to Colossal), but you revert to Medium size whenever you are subjected to the Dead Zone or Divine Nullification transcendental abilities.

Would that be a fair way to handle the "default" size category of an immortal?

On a vaguely-related note, when an immortal takes the Swarm Shape cosmic ability, does he retain his original space, or is his space set to a 10-foot cube just like any other swarm? If it's the latter, then is he still immune to the weapon damage of Titanic and larger immortals? According to the Epic Bestiary, a creature's attacks cover an X-foot cube, where X is the creature's AC/attack penalty from his size category. Titanic creatures have a -16 AC/attack penalty, so their attacks cover a 16-foot cube on average. I find it hard to believe that a Titanic immortal like Surtur can't squash a 10-foot cube of bugs with his fist, his foot, or the flat of his sword.