Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: ENWorld game at Gencon

Hi Impeesa mate!

Arg! Curse me and my western Canada residence - and starving student budget. Although the skiing is great here, I'll give it that.

Well maybe next year I will be able to attend Gencon in the US and we will get the opportunity to say hello in person.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi poilbrun mate!

I still think that some of the changes are not necessary, and could unbalance the game at low level. Skill focus +10? That means that a skill that can maximum be at +9 at level 1 (4 ranks, 5 for ability bonus if 18 + 2 for race) can be boosted to +19?

A +10 bonus gives someone a +50% chance of succeeding at a skill. Given that it would only be one skill I think that is just about fair.

Even a +4 bonus is widely regarded as insignificant. Personally I am torn between the +8 and the +10.

Weapon focus +2? That means a level 1 fighter is on par with his weapon of choice when compared to a fighter 3 without weapon focus (as far as hitting with the weapon is concerned only, of course)?

True, but what about a 3rd-level character with Weapon Focus etc.

I even think that +2 to an ability score for 1 feat is too much. Normally, you can gain 2 points in your ability score every 8 levels. With 1 feat every three levels, that means more or less +5 every 9 levels, if you put everything in the same ability score (I know there are some very useful epic feats that a character might take instead of this one, but let's say he focuses).

If someone focuses on one ability it is always at the expense of others (as you rightly attested).

At +2 to one ability score, that would clearly mean that the +1 every 4 levels is just a cosmetic change! But then, since I do not agree with those changes, I'll just not apply them, easy.

These are epic levels we are talking about lets remember.

As far as skill point go, I still believe UK gives them too much power, but Anubis does not give them enough. I have yet to see a monster, or a template, that has bonus skill points in truly useless skills. Since this is the only case in which the modifier to CR for skills applies (remember that we do not modify a rogue CR because he has a lot of skill points), I believe that the easy way would be to up a little the value of skills from what UK proposed. 56 skill points were equal 14 ability score points, which is 1 point = 4 skill points. Lets make it 1 point = 5 or 6 points.

I am happy to concede 1 ability point = 5 skill points as this maintains continuity with the epic version of the Skill Focus feat.

As for Gen Con UK, I won't be able to make it this year.

I'm sorry to hear that mate.

Most of our brief time at last years event was spent gaming so we never really got a chance to 'hang out'. I was also hoping to say 'bonjour' to Isabelle - give her my love instead.

Anyway, I guess we will get to meet again at the Euro Gencon in 2004, held in Holland - no excuses for missing that event (and that goes for anyone on the continent! Y'hear! ) since its practically within walking distance for you!

 

[Anabstercorian]

No Way! Say No to +10 Skill Focus

UK, if you make Skill Focus be a +10 bonus, it'll make it completely impossible to estimate the average roll a party could make. An Open Lock check will either be completely impossible or quite easy depending on whether or not the party rogue has Skill Focus. Skill Focus will no longer be an optional thing for skill based classes - It'll be mandatory! That's not cool. Leave it at +3, where it's a significant but not overwhelming bonus.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: No Way! Say No to +10 Skill Focus

Hi Anabstercorian mate!

UK, if you make Skill Focus be a +10 bonus, it'll make it completely impossible to estimate the average roll a party could make.

Unfounded.

Actually I have given this a lot of thought and the current Skill Focus feat seems totally irrelevant. Its an almost pointless feat.

Consider the following. Individual skills are not used as often as things like attack rolls and saving throws. As such a skill roll (a bonus of +2; 10% on a d20) is more given to chance than an attack roll; which because it is used more often averages out better.

An Open Lock check will either be completely impossible or quite easy depending on whether or not the party rogue has Skill Focus.

Again, unfounded.

A Rogue would be 40% more likely to open a lock under the auspices of my interpretation of Skill Focus.

Someone who takes Skill Focus should be considered having a degree in that subject. As such they should not be merely 10% (+2) better than the same character without such focus but rather that focus should mean something significant! You should excel at that particular skill.

Skill Focus will no longer be an optional thing for skill based classes - It'll be mandatory!

Personally I think a specialist would take Skill Focus as mandatory. Just as every Fighter will take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation.

That's not cool. Leave it at +3, where it's a significant but not overwhelming bonus.

Actually Skill Focus is currently +2 by the rules; although even +3 is insignificant and underwhelming.

 

[Eldorian]

Hey UK

About this skill focus thingy, I agree that plus 2 is insignificant. That said, I believe that the epic feat should be +10, and perhaps plus 4 for non epic. As for weapon focus, I dislike having the feat more powerful than it is. As it stands, It's hard to remain competitive at low levels without it, I know, my barbarian has remained weapon focus free for 12 levels and has to rage in order to achieve the same bonus to hit of the fighter of the group. I believe weapon focus as a requirement weapon speciallization justifiies it.

Anywho, catch ya later

Eldorian Antar

 

[Clay_More]

Thats the exact reason that I dont use Weapon Focus / Specialisation in my campaign. I generally try to avoid all of the "pure bonus" feats. I pretty much re-write all feats and make lists for the different cultures. So, each country or region has a list of feats, many of which are unique to that place. When someone becomes a Monk, his monestary defines which feats he can choose (makes the monk much cooler. Being a Monk of the Serpent Moon sounds far better than simply being a Monk).

Also, Wizards depend on their place of study / academy / mentor. Clerics depend on their deity. Rogues depend on their nationality & background (I make individual lists for Rogues). Bards are the most liberated, they can choose "national" feats after having spent a year in a certain location. Sorcerers depend on their Path (my house-ruled sorcerer, dont ask).

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Skill Focus is no diploma...

I can see your reasoning behind the insignificance of a +2 or even a +3 skill bonus, but +10 goes too far. I'm not one to have knee jerk reactions to wildly new ideas, but this bonus is hugely overpowered for 1 feat.

A rogue must wait until 10th level before gaining the Skill Mastery special ability, which is essentially what your +10 skill bonus feat accomplishes. Making such a feat available at 1st level is not only unbalanced, but it severely neuters the Skill Mastery special ability of rogues.

That said, what I can rationalize a +5 skill bonus; +5 because it mimics favored enemy, which effectively grants 5 bonuses of +1. Think of the Skill Focus feat as representing intense devotion to one skill, but for the diploma to be earned, that same character will have to take a Greater Skill Focus feat (which would raise the existing bonus to +10).

That seems infinitely more reasonable.

 

[Anubis]

UK, I think that regardless of my opinions of the CR value of skill bonuses (I still don't think 5 skill points is worth 1 ability point . . . If my DM offered be a feat per 5 skill points, I'd be loading up!), I do believe you are wholly defeated on the Skill Focus topic.

Forget the other stuff. Concentration alone breaks your version of Skill Focus. With Skill Focus in concentration, a spellcaster will ALWAYS AUTOMATICALLY SUCCEED when casting on the defensive, starting at Level 1! That's ridiculous! Yeah, I know high level characters can do it, but they're *high level characters*.

Skill Focus is not "a degree in the skill". It's more like having a few extra practice hours at the skill. MOST feats are okay as-is, including most epic feats. Hell, even Devastating Critical turns out to be balanced. Oh, and Skill Focus isn't NEAR as meaningless as Endurance or Run, so that excuse don't hold water. Skill Focus should be +2, equivilant to a circumstance bonus. That is what it is BALANCED at.

As for CR value, UK proposes 0.2 per 10 points I propose 0.2 per 20 points. In this case, perhaps 15 is the correct number, halfway between his and my numbers.

Anyway, that about says it all.

 

[poilbrun]

Skill Focus is not "a degree in the skill". It's more like having a few extra practice hours at the skill. MOST feats are okay as-is, including most epic feats. Hell, even Devastating Critical turns out to be balanced. Oh, and Skill Focus isn't NEAR as meaningless as Endurance or Run, so that excuse don't hold water. Skill Focus should be +2, equivilant to a circumstance bonus. That is what it is BALANCED at.

I mainly agree to everything you say in your post, except that part. I really believe Skill Focus should be +3 and not +2. The main reason is a balance factor compared to the many feats in the several WotC books that give +2 to two skills. Furthermore, in games developed after D&D, skill focus was changed to +3.

As for the value of skill points bonuses to CR, I'd say that 10 is OK. I agree that 10 skill bonus to Craft might not have an impact, but 10 skill bonus to a skill more useful in combat (tumble, knowledge arcana when casting epic spells,...) are certainly worth 0.2 CR

 

[Upper_Krust]

The Skill problem

Hi all!

I'll just lump all relevant discussions into one for the sake of brevity.

The problem as I see it, is that if a feat (on average) is worth CR +0.2; then the amount of skill points we assign to Skill Focus therefore constitutes a CR +0.2 bonus.

So you can't say that x amount of skill points = CR +0.2 but that Skill Focus should be something entirely different.

Currently I am not convinced either way. While I'll admit a jump to +8 or +10 does seem like a bit of a shock to the system they do appear feasible if you break it down.

Obviously the matter needs further investigation, as such consider the CR/EL update on hold.

Also if Epic Feats are (in and of themselves) more powerful than regular feats why do many (Epic Spell Focus; Epic Spell Penetration etc.) simply continue the same progression?