Immortals Handbook - Godsend

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

It's probably too late to ask you to add this in if it's not already included,

Not exactly, because I am nowhere near as far along with this as I wanted to be by this stage. I will be informing work that I need to take a months unpaid leave (to catch up on the writing) but I have to give them a few weeks notice.

but are you going to have rules for how an Artifact increases in power?

One thing i was wondering: does it gain in power with each level up? or with each increase in Divine Rank? if it's each level, can you bank powers? for instance, if I'm a level 30, and i gain a level, that means that my artifacts gain power as well. but that's only a +1 or so. Can i wait till i've earned enough levels till i can add a Divine Ability?

Or do they work in a totally different fashion?

The default is that they simply level-up when you do (in terms of ECL that is, so templates would apply).

Artifacts are annoying in 3E because essentially they are just epic magic items. So the trick is trying to make them something different.

I sort of want independent tracking for them. One idea I have had is that if you use an artifact during an encounter it would gain any Power Points, not the deity. Sort of like soul-stealing.

One problem is going to be what happens when an artifact becomes (notably) more powerful than balanced magic items. I think in these cases the artifact might start to develop 'Drawbacks' to compensate for the power differential. Sort of like the bad things that can happen to mortals who wield artifacts. If gods wield artifacts that are too powerful for them to handle then even they can suffere the consequences.

 

[Evilmonkeygod]

While i see what your saying about Artifacts being better epic magic items, i just don't agree. Maybe it's because I'm willing to fudge the rules a bit, but the Mace i'm designing for my Warlock i mentioned on the other thread will have the powers of a Warlock's Scepter(though i am going to increase the amount of charges to ten or maybe fifteen), along with Feats and Divine Abilities.

I think, and i don't mean this negatively at all, you are really underestimating the ability to give a character access to feats(non-epic or other wise), Divine and Up Abilities via an Artifact. I think it has to be one of the more innovative ideas I've ever seen, and i think it's really upsetting normal WotC rules don't cover such things in regular magic item creation.

I can not think of any character/concept i have ever played or thought of, that could not benefit from an extra few feats or special powers. Even a straight fighter could often use just one more feat sometimes and your system provides a way to do that. AND technically it's all possible in normal, non-epic levels of play.

Like i said above, i fudge the rules with Artifacts, but i think it's totally OK. In fact, i would go so far as to say you should even include a line or two about how there's nothing overly wrong with doing just that. An Artifact, in 3.5, Krusty's Awesomesauceverse or 4e should be something very special and unique. If that means screwing around with the rules abit, who cares? it's not like their mundane items that will be used in an everyday game. Even if the game is played with the begining deific templates you've created, at the minimum level suggested, the game is obviously very special, so to me, it's prefectly fine to play a little fast and loose with the rules, in order to create exactly what you want, regardless of which of the various systems/versions of the game you play.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Evil!

While i see what your saying about Artifacts being better epic magic items, i just don't agree. Maybe it's because I'm willing to fudge the rules a bit, but the Mace i'm designing for my Warlock i mentioned on the other thread will have the powers of a Warlock's Scepter(though i am going to increase the amount of charges to ten or maybe fifteen), along with Feats and Divine Abilities.

I think, and i don't mean this negatively at all, you are really underestimating the ability to give a character access to feats (non-epic or other wise), Divine and Up Abilities via an Artifact. I think it has to be one of the more innovative ideas I've ever seen, and i think it's really upsetting normal WotC rules don't cover such things in regular magic item creation.

Items as multifaceted as you suggest, with potentially dozens of powers really leave a bad taste in my mouth. I'll be the first to put my hand up and say that immortals really have too many abilities in 3E...partly my own fault of course. I tried to limit artifacts to four and make other magic items next to irrelevant. But if you allow these multifaceted items you undo a lot of that hard work.

Of course technically the game should still be balanced, but I just see it as overload.

I can not think of any character/concept i have ever played or thought of, that could not benefit from an extra few feats or special powers. Even a straight fighter could often use just one more feat sometimes and your system provides a way to do that. AND technically it's all possible in normal, non-epic levels of play.

Every character can benefit from more powers, but, at some point you have to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough.

I mean I know a lot of you guys get a kick out of the uber stuff, as do I, its just the complexity, the stacking of power after power that I think really makes the game unwieldy. Thats one of the main reasons 4E is such a godsend, if you'll excuse the pun.

Like i said above, i fudge the rules with Artifacts, but i think it's totally OK. In fact, i would go so far as to say you should even include a line or two about how there's nothing overly wrong with doing just that. An Artifact, in 3.5, Krusty's Awesomesauceverse or 4e should be something very special and unique. If that means screwing around with the rules abit, who cares? it's not like their mundane items that will be used in an everyday game. Even if the game is played with the begining deific templates you've created, at the minimum level suggested, the game is obviously very special, so to me, it's prefectly fine to play a little fast and loose with the rules, in order to create exactly what you want, regardless of which of the various systems/versions of the game you play.

Absolutely. Theres nothing set in stone in RPGs and certainly not in my work. I just try to give the best guidelines and ideas I can.

 

[dante58701]

Quick questions...

Panversal - Divine or Cosmic?

Extra Face/Head - Does it allow you to use [Effect] abilities (such as Breath Weapon) an additional time each round per head? Or would you have to take the [Effect] ability for each head?

Third Eye - Does it stack with Extra Face/Head? Does each head receive a 3rd eye?

Extraplanar Aberrations - Shouldn't these be converted to outsiders?

Prime example being spellweavers, which in every description seem to fit the outsider profile, rather than the aberration profile, especially with their excessive Hit Dice.

How would you rebuild them?

Virtual Size Categories - Do they allow creatures to exceed racial norms for their Hit Dice.

Example: A human (3HD) acquires 4 virtual size categories. Do racial Hit Dice then become 48??? This is how the Legendary Animal template functions and is mechanically identical.

How does this work exactly?

It seems to makes sense to increase a human's 3HD to 48HD.

Is this feat balanced as an Epic Feat? There are already numerous feats that perform this function to a lesser degree, although none of them are epic or as useful.

Multi-Faced/Headed Mastery [Epic, Monstrous]
Your extra face/head can take actions (free, full round, immediate, move, standard, or swift) normally.
Prerequisite: Dex 20+, Int 20+, one or more extra faces/heads, Improved Multiattack, Multiattack.
Benefit: Your extra face/head can take actions (free, full round, immediate, move, standard, or swift) normally. If it takes one action (free, immediate, move, standard, or swift) it does not count against your actions. If it takes a full round action it counts against your actions. If it takes more than one action (free, immediate, move, standard, or swift) each extra action counts against your actions.
Normal: Without this feat, your extra face/head cannot take actions (free, full round, immediate, move, standard, or swift) normally.
Special: Add 5 to the Dexterity and Intelligence prerequisites for each extra face/head. This feat can be taken multiple times (once for each extra face/head).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dante mate!

Quick questions...

Panversal - Divine or Cosmic?

Cosmic...I think.

Extra Face/Head - Does it allow you to use [Effect] abilities (such as Breath Weapon) an additional time each round per head? Or would you have to take the [Effect] ability for each head?

You could split the damage between the two heads to attack twice* (each for half effect).

*Once with each head.

Third Eye - Does it stack with Extra Face/Head? Does each head receive a 3rd eye?

In my opinion you would need a divine ability slot for each additional Third Eye.

Extraplanar Aberrations - Shouldn't these be converted to outsiders?

Depends on whether you view Aberrations as aliens and Outsiders as 'Spirit' Creatures or not. I do thus they stay as they are.

Prime example being spellweavers, which in every description seem to fit the outsider profile, rather than the aberration profile, especially with their excessive Hit Dice.

Not the first time the official rules have went all over the place with regards Hit Dice allocation.

How would you rebuild them?

I probably wouldn't.

Virtual Size Categories - Do they allow creatures to exceed racial norms for their Hit Dice.

Example: A human (3HD) acquires 4 virtual size categories. Do racial Hit Dice then become 48??? This is how the Legendary Animal template functions and is mechanically identical.

How does this work exactly?

It seems to makes sense to increase a human's 3HD to 48HD.

Very good question. On the face of it, looks like they would gain the extra hit dice, which means that all adjusted abilities that grant size categories need attention.

Is this feat balanced as an Epic Feat? There are already numerous feats that perform this function to a lesser degree, although none of them are epic or as useful.

Multi-Faced/Headed Mastery [Epic, Monstrous]
Your extra face/head can take actions (free, full round, immediate, move, standard, or swift) normally.
Prerequisite: Dex 20+, Int 20+, one or more extra faces/heads, Improved Multiattack, Multiattack.
Benefit: Your extra face/head can take actions (free, full round, immediate, move, standard, or swift) normally. If it takes one action (free, immediate, move, standard, or swift) it does not count against your actions. If it takes a full round action it counts against your actions. If it takes more than one action (free, immediate, move, standard, or swift) each extra action counts against your actions.
Normal: Without this feat, your extra face/head cannot take actions (free, full round, immediate, move, standard, or swift) normally.
Special: Add 5 to the Dexterity and Intelligence prerequisites for each extra face/head. This feat can be taken multiple times (once for each extra face/head).

I'll be back later to look over it, needs some thought and I am running on an empty stomach at the moment. Need my dinner. Back later.

 

[dante58701]

Hey dante mate!

Been a while, how things coming? =^.^=

Cosmic...I think.

Thanks, I've been wondering if I had it right.

You could split the damage between the two heads to attack twice* (each for half effect).

*Once with each head.

That doesn't fit well with the multi-headed theme. Weaker breath weapons just because you have more than one head? Just doesn't have precedent.

Not to mention [Effect] Strike wouldn't be divided up in this manner so it makes even less sense. I could see it taking 2x longer to recharge a breath weapon, but I couldn't see it weakened.

In my opinion you would need a divine ability slot for each additional Third Eye.

This I can buy, it makes sense. I was wondering about that. You should put a notation in regarding that. I have no doubt there will be a minor errata file in the making after you finally finish Godsend.

Depends on whether you view Aberrations as aliens and Outsiders as 'Spirit' Creatures or not. I do thus they stay as they are.

Perhaps, but a lot of outsiders are fairly alien. If we went back to 2nd Edition and rebuilt many of these creatures, how do we know we wouldn't redefine their type?

Not the first time the official rules have went all over the place with regards Hit Dice allocation.

Quite true, it happens frequently with Aberrations, Magical Beasts, and Monstrous Humanoids. I recall in the Epic Bestiary this passage...

Its also possible to create variants on the theme. For example, to create a legendary animal, you add the benefits of a behemoth animal template to the base creature, but do not increase the creatures size. Of course the increases are unnatural so creature type becomes outsider.

The portion stating...

Of course the increases are unnatural so creature type becomes outsider.

Made me think of all those creatures with excessive Hit Dice. It's unnatural for them to have those excessive Hit Dice, but...

...you keep stating you wouldn't revise them.

I probably wouldn't.

This leaves a massive discrepancy that can only be filled by one solution...

Of course the increases are unnatural so creature type becomes outsider.

...make them outsiders.

Very good question. On the face of it, looks like they would gain the extra hit dice, which means that all adjusted abilities that grant size categories need attention.

Is that an official ruling? =^.^= I kinda need one since my gaming group is essentially waiting on the edges of their chairs for an official ruling regarding this.

As much as I can see this being abused, I know that mechanically speaking it's perfectly sound.

I'll be back later to look over it, needs some thought and I am running on an empty stomach at the moment. Need my dinner. Back later.

MORBO IS HUNGRY!!! Must eat to recharge spooky powers. =^.^=

 

[Upper_Krust]

Been a while, how things coming? =^.^=

My usual...slower than I'd like. Thats why I am taking a month off work (although that will technically end up more like 40 days off because of the way my schedule works).

Thanks, I've been wondering if I had it right.

Happy to help.

That doesn't fit well with the multi-headed theme. Weaker breath weapons just because you have more than one head? Just doesn't have precedent.

I'm setting the precedent then.

Not to mention [Effect] Strike wouldn't be divided up in this manner so it makes even less sense. I could see it taking 2x longer to recharge a breath weapon, but I couldn't see it weakened.

A breath weapon comes from within the body, not necessarily from the head. Having multiple heads doesn't make your powers multiply.

This I can buy, it makes sense. I was wondering about that. You should put a notation in regarding that. I have no doubt there will be a minor errata file in the making after you finally finish Godsend.

Thats probably a given.

Perhaps, but a lot of outsiders are fairly alien. If we went back to 2nd Edition and rebuilt many of these creatures, how do we know we wouldn't redefine their type?

Alien-looking outsiders are still outsiders though. Aberrations are living creatures. The alien from the alien movies is an aberration - not an outsider.

Quite true, it happens frequently with Aberrations, Magical Beasts, and Monstrous Humanoids. I recall in the Epic Bestiary this passage...

The portion stating...

Made me think of all those creatures with excessive Hit Dice. It's unnatural for them to have those excessive Hit Dice, but...

...you keep stating you wouldn't revise them.

I'm not revising them - I see no need to do so and even if I did I still wouldn't revise them.

This leaves a massive discrepancy that can only be filled by one solution...

...make them outsiders.

The solution is to just leave it be. I'm not revising the entire 3E monster roster just because someone somewhere thinks it might be a good idea.

Is that an official ruling? =^.^= I kinda need one since my gaming group is essentially waiting on the edges of their chairs for an official ruling regarding this.

I honestly think this is a can of worms that should not be opened.

As much as I can see this being abused, I know that mechanically speaking it's perfectly sound.

Its just going to be the mother of all mess ups allowing this.

In fact I am tempted to just say that non-immortals (and thus non-outsiders) cannot transcend +15 strength beyond their average scores. That would limit the damage this nonsense can wreck.

MORBO IS HUNGRY!!! Must eat to recharge spooky powers. =^.^=

I've looked over the feat. Its too powerful and a tad too complicated.

 

[dante58701]

My usual...slower than I'd like. Thats why I am taking a month off work (although that will technically end up more like 40 days off because of the way my schedule works).

Is Godsend still slated for the 1st?

I'm setting the precedent then.

A breath weapon comes from within the body, not necessarily from the head. Having multiple heads doesn't make your powers multiply.

Precisely why the recharge should take twice as long between breath weapons. I don't like the idea of weakening a breath weapon's damage output.

Preventing if from being used as often is another matter entirely. I can see that making much more sense.

Alien-looking outsiders are still outsiders though. Aberrations are living creatures. The alien from the alien movies is an aberration - not an outsider.

Yes, but I'm referring to extraplanar creatures that were pegged as being aberrations when they could have just as easily been outsiders. Like the creatures of Far Realm.

I'm not revising them - I see no need to do so and even if I did I still wouldn't revise them.

The solution is to just leave it be. I'm not revising the entire 3E monster roster just because someone somewhere thinks it might be a good idea.

I'm not saying you should revise them, you have enough on your plate. I'm saying that they need to be revised and there should be guidelines for this.

I honestly think this is a can of worms that should not be opened.

It already has been. It's something that was missed. You can't just ignore a problem and hope it will solve itself.

Its just going to be the mother of all mess ups allowing this.

Not necessarily. You could just make a blanket statement that while Virtual Size Categories increase racial Hit Dice, but limit multiple applications of feats.

Example: Feat (x1) = Mortal (Feat (x6) = Esoteric); Feat (x6) = Divine (Feat (x36) = Esoteric); Feat (x36) = Cosmic (Feat (x216) = Esoteric); etc.

This would prevent people from pumping up Strength.

Of course increasing racial hit dice is not without it's own setbacks.

For starters, you will gain Class levels more slowly.

In fact I am tempted to just say that non-immortals (and thus non-outsiders) cannot transcend +15 strength beyond their average scores. That would limit the damage this nonsense can wreck.

Then you would have to rewrite the entire 3.5 system from scratch. Let's not go there.

I'm not too concerned about the racial hit dice. As it stands this would rarely be applicable in most instance.

One special case, a human amidah would gain 5 virtual size categories and be racial Hit Dice 96. This isn't too bad considering it's a transcendental template anyways.

This actually makes a lot of sense considering it's extremely high level adjustment.

If a divine template were added it would reinforce integrated class levels quite a bit.

All in all it's not that big of an issue if the DM just keeps it in mind. Besides, most people have only 1 or 2 virtual size categories anyways. I don't see 6 or 12 HD being much of an issue.

Even a Medium humanoid Greater Deity would have only 2 virtual size categories (12 racial Hit Dice) on average.

For monsters this is a complete non-issue. In fact it just makes them tougher and thus more fun to fight.

I've looked over the feat. Its too powerful and a tad too complicated.

How about this one?

Multi-Faced/Headed Mastery
Your extra face/head can take one action.
Prerequisite: Dex 20+, Int 20+, one or more extra faces/heads, Improved Multiattack, Multiattack.
Benefit: Your extra face/head can take one action. If this action if a free, full round, immediate, move, or swift action it counts against your actions.
Furthermore, your extra face/head can take additional actions. Any additional actions your extra face/head takes also count against your actions.
Normal: Without this feat, your extra face/head cannot take one action.
Special: Add 5 to the Dexterity and Intelligence prerequisites for each extra face/head. You can take this feat multiple times (once for each extra face/head).

 

[dante58701]

Update on Virtual Size Category = HD issue.

I tried it out, built a lesser deity from scratch. Even at 4 virtual size categories it still didn't break the system.

It has definitely become a non-issue. He was 48 HD, which is slightly less than average for a lesser deity.

In fact, designing him was even easier than it would have been had I not increased his HD according to the VSC rules.

Yet again Krusty's system of pseudo-physics is nearly perfect.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Is Godsend still slated for the 1st?

If by 1st you mean the first day after its finished then yes!

Precisely why the recharge should take twice as long between breath weapons. I don't like the idea of weakening a breath weapon's damage output.

The whole recharge thing is a waste of time because all your going to do is front end the attack with multiple heads dealing multiple times your base damage and then forget about the breath weapon until the next encounter.

Its a bad idea and I won't be party to it.

Preventing if from being used as often is another matter entirely. I can see that making much more sense.

Dividing the base damage between the heads is the ONLY logical approach.

Yes, but I'm referring to extraplanar creatures that were pegged as being aberrations when they could have just as easily been outsiders. Like the creatures of Far Realm.

Theres no reason why Far Realm creatures would be Outsiders. Beholders and Illithids are from the Far Realm and they are Aberrations.

I'm not saying you should revise them, you have enough on your plate. I'm saying that they need to be revised and there should be guidelines for this.

I know you are saying it, but I don't agree. Its something of a moot point now anyway considering the argument doesn't apply to 4E.

It already has been. It's something that was missed. You can't just ignore a problem and hope it will solve itself.

Well I can...but I have already given you the simplest solution.

Not necessarily. You could just make a blanket statement that while Virtual Size Categories increase racial Hit Dice, but limit multiple applications of feats.

Example: Feat (x1) = Mortal (Feat (x6) = Esoteric); Feat (x6) = Divine (Feat (x36) = Esoteric); Feat (x36) = Cosmic (Feat (x216) = Esoteric); etc.

This would prevent people from pumping up Strength.

Of course increasing racial hit dice is not without it's own setbacks.

For starters, you will gain Class levels more slowly.

Borderline irrelevant given the power levels your likely talking about.

Then you would have to rewrite the entire 3.5 system from scratch. Let's not go there.

No, what you are suggesting is that we rewrite the entire 3.5E and start giving high strength beings far more hit dice. What I am suggesting is a rule to limit them gaining the strength in the first place, which stops the whole Hit Dice inflation nonsense in its tracks.

I'm not too concerned about the racial hit dice. As it stands this would rarely be applicable in most instance.

Then forget about it and drop the subject.

One special case, a human amidah would gain 5 virtual size categories and be racial Hit Dice 96. This isn't too bad considering it's a transcendental template anyways.

This actually makes a lot of sense considering it's extremely high level adjustment.

If a divine template were added it would reinforce integrated class levels quite a bit.

All in all it's not that big of an issue if the DM just keeps it in mind. Besides, most people have only 1 or 2 virtual size categories anyways. I don't see 6 or 12 HD being much of an issue.

Even a Medium humanoid Greater Deity would have only 2 virtual size categories (12 racial Hit Dice) on average.

For monsters this is a complete non-issue. In fact it just makes them tougher and thus more fun to fight.

As far as I can tell, this is potentially the worst nightmare in 3E. Its a self-perpetuating boon that rapidly spirals out of control. High strength grants you extra hit dice. Extra hit dice grants you extra ability scores and feats which can be used for increasing ability scores. Repeat ad infinitum.

Its a complete and utter spiral of doom so terrifying that I won't go there in the slightest.

How about this one?

Multi-Faced/Headed Mastery
Your extra face/head can take one action.
Prerequisite: Dex 20+, Int 20+, one or more extra faces/heads, Improved Multiattack, Multiattack.
Benefit: Your extra face/head can take one action. If this action if a free, full round, immediate, move, or swift action it counts against your actions.
Furthermore, your extra face/head can take additional actions. Any additional actions your extra face/head takes also count against your actions.
Normal: Without this feat, your extra face/head cannot take one action.
Special: Add 5 to the Dexterity and Intelligence prerequisites for each extra face/head. You can take this feat multiple times (once for each extra face/head).

The act of gaining a new head should in itself allow a new attack if such an attack is warranted (ie. breath weapon or bite attack).

In all cases the base damage of the new attack should be a fraction of the previous damage.

2 heads - each dealing 1/2 base damage
6 heads - each dealing 1/6th base damage etc.

Note that a human with 2 heads would not gain a bite attack. But a Ghoul (which already has a bite attack) with two heads would gain an additional bite.