D&D 5E In a polytheistic setting, the relationship between a Cleric and a deity goes in the Ideal and Flaw section.

[FrozenNorth]

The way I would put it is that the DM should encourage the player to indicate in the PBIF section what it is about the deity that attracts them.

For instance, one cleric might be interested in their god’s protection of wild spaces, while another may be more drawn to the aspect that protects wanderers and travellers.

 

[aco175]

I tend to have bonds and flaws tied to the world and the background rather than to the gods and the cleric's relationship with them or the one. There may be something like he betrayed someone back in temple school or stole a holy symbol from the temple over he follows this part of the teachings. That stuff is developed, but not as part of his bonds and flaws. It is more a history and roleplay part. They can be tied loosely if the DM wants to explore it.

 

[jgsugden]

Putting what I said earlier another way: I think the default for a cleric or paladin is that they have a bond and ideal associated with their faith that you can assume by default. If you veer significantly from the 'norm' , that would be something worth noting in these sections of the PC. However, it is not really telling you anything interesting to note it on your character sheet if people would consider it the default for a PC class.

 

[Yaarel]

I learned to play D&D from old school players. I have their ethic that the DM is supposed to create a homebrew world. The decisions of the player characters shape this world.

I have never played in an official setting. (Except Dragonlance which we aborted while still level 1.) The idea that there is a "norm" that every Cleric is expected to conform to, is alien to me.

It depends on the setting.

Just like the institutions and expectations for Fighter and Wizard depend on the setting, so do the institutions and expectations for the Cleric depend.

I borrow elements from other settings, but they are in the context of our own setting. Besides even official settings have different kinds of religious assumptions, whether Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dark Sun, or Magic The Gathering.



This time around for 5e, I am curious about running or playing in the official Dark Sun setting. If it has features I will enjoy, I will do it as-is. In the Dark Sun setting, the Clerics are alchemists in a godless setting. (Heh, for me, the idea of "worshiping" an elemental would be eyerollingly dumb.) For a Dark Sun Cleric, I have to think about in what way an element is the cosmic force that becomes the center of a sacred tradition. I will look at Daoism and the Five Walk, elemental ways of moving, for inspiration, as well as Hellenistic elementalism. When creating a Cleric, it is necessary to translate these ideas into a character concept within the context of the Dark Sun setting. The design space for this Cleric concept is Bond, Ideal, Flaw, Quirk.

 

[Yaarel]

Some players want their Paladin to be a theistic holy warrior. The relationship of such a Paladin to the deity would also go in the Bond-Ideal design space.

And the same is true for any character. If being part of a sacred tradition is central to the character concept of a Rogue or a Sorcerer, Bond-Ideal would describe that spiritual community too.

The Cleric is no different.

The design space for Bond, Ideal, Flaw, Quirk is for any kind of relationship that defines the identity of the character.

 

[Yaarel]

I would like the WotC official character sheets to relocate the alignment from the header to the Bond-Ideal design space.

Alignment is an aspect of Ideal. In addition to a box to place the alignment itself, such as "Chaotic Good", I would like enough space for a sentence or two to give examples of specific behaviors that the character tends to do that actualize the Chaotic Good intention. Perhaps the character tends to help individuals who are lonely, or perhaps the character breaks out prisoners who were wrongfully accused.

The Bond-Ideal design space can evolve, and the player can rewrite it to update it, as the character concept becomes clearer or shifts.

 

[Umbran]

Old school is harsh. Heh, to me, the removal of class features felt more like punishing the reallife players who wanted to play Cleric and Paladin. I am glad new school is more chill, and treats the Cleric and Paladin features like features of any other class.

So, that raises the question - what you do if your cleric decides to work contrary to their deity's ethos?

Like, if the character follows a pacifist deity, and the character decides to become a bloody combatant... that's cool with the god? Spells come from the god no matter what you choose, because... gods are bound by your class choice?

 

[Yaarel]

So, that raises the question - what you do if your cleric decides to work contrary to their deity's ethos?

Like, if the character follows a pacifist deity, and the character decides to become a bloody combatant... that's cool with the god? Spells come from the god no matter what you choose, because... gods are bound by your class choice?

Me personally as DM?

If a player character operates in a way that is adverse to their sacred community, I use NPCs from that community to confront them. The interaction forms the conflict for an ongoing story. Will the player want to repent, find a new sacred community, try reform the sacred community? Sometimes "confrontation" means combat encounter depending on the nature of the community and the adversity.

Religion is subjective. Each individual belief and each shared cultural belief is legitimate. Magic can manifest a belief. The subjectivity compares to Eberron. But like 4e, the Astral Plane is a mindscape that has domains for the beliefs of each culture. So a character can encounter the mystical visions of their culture, sometimes even physically if planeshifting (transfiguring) into the mindstuff of aster.

A player character that deviates or individuates from a sacred community, might experience significant dreams or waking omens, at least until the inner conflict resolves.

 

[Yaarel]

Spells come from the god

Not exactly.

"Divine magic" is "the power of the gods".

The Cleric class uses the divine power source. And the gods, if any, also use the divine power source. The Paladin class also uses the divine power source. The Paladin has no relationship with any deities. The Paladin utilizes the divine power source personally and directly.

In other words, the gods are made out of the divine power source. These powerful celestials and fiends are constructs made out of divine magical energy. Their substance is aster, the mindstuff of the Astral Plane. In other words, they are Jungian archetypes.

Divine magic is something like the magic of psychology, which is why a Paladin Oath is so potent.

The Astral Plane overlaps all that exists in the multiverse. The Astral Plane is coterminous anywhere and everywhere there is a sentient being.

 

[Yaarel]

The Cleric is class that tends to refer to the cosmology of the setting. How a setting "works" can be important to the character concept.

The following comes from a tangent in an other thread, but is more topical in this thread.

Sed contra, as pure separated Intellects, all Angels have complete and total knowledge of dancing. However, on that point, since they have no material extension, they cannot dance, so an infinite number of angels can not-dance on the head of a pin. So, infinite divided by zero.

Quod Erat Demonstratum, y'all.

It depends on which theology and when. The Renaissance speculative theology had an elementalist worldview comprising a Great Chain of Being, which transitioned fluidly from solid matter to ethereal spirit: Earth (solid), Water (liquid), Air (gas), Fire, and Spirit. In this sense, an angel that was made out of Spirit was perceived to take up some space even if their substance was more fine and less course. Similarly, a fairy was made out of Spirit thus was also able to shrink down its size − to about the size of a thumbnail. The fairy was fine, but not as fine as an angel who could shrink down even finer.



For the D&D multiverse cosmology, I view the angels as constructs made out of aster, the mindstuff of the Astral Plane.

The angel is pure thought, an "intellect" construct, and lacks substance. However the angel can manifest physically within the Material Plane as if solid. To do so, the angel physicalizes via the ether of the Ethereal Plane.

The ether is the fifth element that potentially comprises any of the other four elements. The ether itself is "spirit" as an element. This element is the interface that mediates between the mindscape of the Astral Plane and the physicality of the Material Plane.

Ether itself is pure force, including gravity. Force is energetic like fire, and fluid like water, and is physical but immaterial. Ether is the element that keeps the moon and the other "stars" in their orbits.

The mind construct of the angel manifests via the ether to physicalize into a temporary force construct within the Material Plane.



The Feywild and the Shadowfell are made out of ether. Fey is part of the Ethereal Plane that borders the Positive Plane, and Shadow borders the Negative Plane. The Elemental Planes are aspects within the Ethereal Plane, where ether is the fifth element.

When mages "summon" spirits, such as an Elemental, Fey, Shadow, Celestial or Fiend, the body that manifests is a construct made out of force, aka ether.

If a person kills a conjured Fey animal, the body that is a force construct vanishes but the mind of the animal is still safe and ok. The mind of the animal reverts to its planar source, wherever that is. Same goes for a Paladin steed, a Warlock familiar, and so on. Similarly an angel.