In defense of Open Gaming

Re: Re: Re: Re: In defense of Open Gaming

JohnNephew said:
(I don't know that this has any impact on your point, just that the numbers you're tossing out need to be adjusted by a rough order of magnitude. I'm not sure if the 3EPHB has broken the million mark in sales, for instance.)

Well, your assertionsactually strengthen my point, rather than weaken it :)

However, I should ask - where do your assertions come from? Do you have actual data, or are you making a personal estimation?

Without search, I cannot easily find the attribution, but I'm fairly certain that Mr. Dancey (or someone like him, in that they were in a position to know) has mentioned more than once on these boards that the 3E core books have passed the million mark in sales. I admit that this is hearsay until someone finds a quote.

Note that I did not say that any particular game sold over 100,000. I said that I suspect that 3rd party products aren't likely to fly unless the game sells more than that. If we are both correct, then very few games would gain noticible benefit from using an open license.
 

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Flexor the Mighty! said:
You are joking about Microsoft making a superior product right?

Netscape Navigator/MS Internet Explorer were the products refered to, I believe. NN may have been better for a while (I think so), but IE is far better ATM. As for their other products...
 

evileeyore said:


You are correct that d20 is slowly fixing the minor flaws...

Unfortunately I will never like the system so long as the Biggest Flaw remains. The Level, Class system d20 relies upon.


So I'll never change. Now before you go "He must have been birthed with a GURPS book in hand", my first "real" RPG was AD&D I was 9 (yeah a long time ago, heh, remember Comeliness?). Then I played D&D until I was 16. Then I found Nirvana (not the band, that was later...) GURPS. Hell I'll be the first to admit its flaws are hefty... but it best represents what I want in a system.


Its funny to read your post you sound a lot like me! Coincidently I played Eeyore many years ago in a play. HMM...

I too like GURPS best of all (other than the Eden Studios Unisystem) but I enjoy the fun of D&D too. IMO Different games for different needs.

My biggest problem with D&D IMO is the built in escalation you know the drill 1st level=orcs 4th level= ogres 8th level=demons and so on.

I find this makes D&D a frustrating system to use in low magic or low monster settings. No mind you it isn't a bug but a feature and if you want to play superheroic fanatsy (of course I can fight an army) nothing is better

Also there are 'patches' out there like Ken Hoods Grim & Gritty that make D&D very different.

I haven't tried them in actuall play yet but if I understand the way they work Grim N Gritty combined with a few mods may turn D&D into a very different system. Nice
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: In defense of Open Gaming

Umbran said:
I said that I suspect that 3rd party products aren't likely to fly unless the game sells more than that. If we are both correct, then very few games would gain noticible benefit from using an open license.

How do these (estimated) sales figures bolster your point of view? From what I know from hanging around the d20 Publishers forum, JohnNephew's figures seemed ballpark correct, but I don't see this backing you up.

Also, isn't 100k a lot for a 3rd party product? Perhaps we should ask some of the larger d20 companies (and some independant companies) how realistic 2k, 10k, and 100k are.
 

CoF is Necromancer Games best selling module. I think Clark was saying that it has sold somewhere between 10-12k copies. If I find the actual post I will edit the number.

The newest release, Tomb of Abyshtor, had 6000 copies printed. They are all gone from the WW warehouse. All of them. So if you see one in the FLGS, snatch it up while you can. :D
 

WSmith said:


Aloha, REG. Did you ever get to see if Jellies in the Pearl Kai shopping center is still there?
Oddly enough, Jelly's is still there.


I find it very amusing that not even the Decipher people hang around their own message boards, save an occasional post by Ross Issacs. Now I know why. :D I have gotten more info in the CODA system at Trek-rpg i a week or so than I have in months on the official boards. :D
Yeah, it helps to have the webmaster of TrekRPGNetwork who have the inside scoop and connection with the former LUG staff, especially when he also contribute his writing talents for LUG and now Decipher.

I said it before, and I will say it again. They spent too much splash on their web site, and not enough to upgrade their antiquated message boards.

P.S. I hope that Don Mappin is set to launch a web site and message board for Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG (due out in Summer).
 


What an interesting thread.

That Decipher link was just insane. That was proof positive of the evil quality of the internet--the uninformed opinion cant on its face be seperated from the informed opinion. Those people dont have a clue about open gaming.

If they did, they would realize the OGL could be used by their favorite publishers to allow third parties to make products for their favorite game. Or perhaps they ignore that becasue they know their game would still not sell much anyway. It all goes back to popularity and that bulls**t gamer idea of "purity": they dont want to play the popular game (D&D) and they want to say they are more "pure" gamers by playing an obscure game.

The only people to go out of business as a result of d20 was small d20 publishers themselves.

In fact, I am relatively certain that other companies made money with d20 (Chaosium, Atlas) that allowed them to funnel that money to other non-d20 projects. (I dont want to speak for Atlas or Chaosium, that is just my assumption).

I know WW made money off d20. Look at SSS. All those companies make competing products to D&D. I observed early on how strange the OGL/d20 situation was--WotC was creating a vehicle for its own competitors to make a ton of money on WotC's own IP!!!

The genius of the OGL is that it made 3E fully supported right away, which helped people decide to switch to 3E. WotC appears to have been worried that people would continue to play 2E. Frankly, I wouldnt have worried about that, we are game geeks and always buy the new rule books. But OGL has made that happen much faster.

Hey, if the guys who make Kobolds Ate My Baby an open game, they could have thrid party support. That doesnt change the fact that you are only going to have a core number of people that will buy that product.

Clark
 

Umbran said:
However, I should ask - where do your assertions come from? Do you have actual data, or are you making a personal estimation?

Since my claims were pretty broad, let me call it a personal estimation -- but I think it's a fairly educated one, based on being in the business for a few years. Nobody publishes specific sales figures or print runs, but with some discreet inquiries you get a sense of where the chips have been falling. I've also seen some very specific numbers in the course of considering business opportunities (such as the purchase of game lines, involving a review of historical sales).

Umbran said:
Without search, I cannot easily find the attribution, but I'm fairly certain that Mr. Dancey (or someone like him, in that they were in a position to know) has mentioned more than once on these boards that the 3E core books have passed the million mark in sales. I admit that this is hearsay until someone finds a quote.

I'm pretty sure that the core books combined have passed the million mark. In whispered conversations I've heard estimates of the PHB being in the 600,000-1 million units range (but presumably it has continued to sell since I heard such estimates); I haven't seen anyone definitively say that it's passed the million mark yet.

In any case, I agree, these numbers don't detract from the point you were making (and perhaps reinforce it). I just often find folks make assumptions about the sales of games that are off by an order of magnitude, and so wanted to step in and act like Mr. Know-It-All. ;-)

Orcus said:
In fact, I am relatively certain that other companies made money with d20 (Chaosium, Atlas) that allowed them to funnel that money to other non-d20 projects. (I dont want to speak for Atlas or Chaosium, that is just my assumption).

It's a valid assumption for us at Atlas, at least, Clark. Early D20 profits did us a lot of good on the whole, offsetting a downturn in the market (the Pokemon cash crunch), giving us more working capital in general (allowing us to do things like reprint Lunch Money and Once Upon A Time faster than usual), and helping me publish at least one book that I expected to lose money but had promised to a game's fans (and the book's writers) years ago.
 

Orcus said:
What an interesting thread.

That Decipher link was just insane. That was proof positive of the evil quality of the internet--the uninformed opinion cant on its face be seperated from the informed opinion. Those people dont have a clue about open gaming.
While the upper management at Decipher do not, the designers (former LUG & WotC employees) do. But management is boss here.

Then again, it is simply up to every business. I mean look at Gold Rush Games. They're going with the open gaming approach, but they're not using Wizards' OGL, but their drafting their own Action! System license. (Currently, they posted a Temporary License at www.action-system.com.

And while White Wolf has been publisher and distribution house for such companies as Arthaus, Sword & Sorcery Studios, and Necromancer Games -- all d20 designers -- the open gaming approach stop short of their own Storyteller System. They're not ready to open their in-house rules system...

... Unless you overhear something different, Orcus. :D

I agree that Open Gaming is a great opportunity for game designers to showcase their talents, but it's not a bona fide get-rich-quick scheme.
 
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