In defense of Open Gaming

[Darkcross]

"And while White Wolf has been publisher and distribution house for such companies as Arthaus, Sword & Sorcery Studios, and Necromancer Games -- all d20 designers -- the open gaming approach stop short of their own Storyteller System. They're not ready to open their in-house rules system..." -- Ranger REG

Which is a damn shame if you ask me. I like D20, but I also think Storyteller has a lot going for it. And it's a shame that it's tied so closely to the love-it-or-hate-it World of Darkness. Because of White Wolf's sales expectations based on WoD, other non-WoD games haven't gotten the shake they deserve (Adventure!, Trinity, etc.) And White Wolf seems more interested in expanding the already over-populated WoD than in trying out other genres.

-- Darkcross

 

[Henry]

Fine. Leave me in the dark.

But until you present proof to your statement you made above, then I won't accept it. Now if you cannot because you wish to be polite, then maybe someone else will.

The best person to ask about this is Eric Noah.

Why?

Because about two months ago, he totally re-worked Morrus' d20 company links page to remove dead links to companies that either changed web sites or who weren't around, and to add new companies that have just started out. Unless I am mistaken, he still maintains that portion of ENWorld.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I think I can contribute something here - not as much as E.N. could, though.

I tracked down every d20 publisher I could find to send an email about the SSBF ( http://www.d20statblock.org ). Compiling the list with two other people over the course of a month, I finally sent out the letter...

...only to find that a *dozen* of the emails were already invalid. Not just unchecked, not delivered to a dead company, but completely "return to sender" dead. Many more of these companies were later removed from the d20 system guide, leaving me to presume they went out of business.

 

[Desdichado]

Unfortunately I will never like the system so long as the Biggest Flaw remains. The Level, Class system d20 relies upon.

Well, you're a little out of date. d20 does not rely on levels and classes, and as Ace32(? is that who it was?) pointed out, the Grim N Gritty system makes those somewhat superflous anyways.

But Call of Cthulhu is a class-less d20 game. You want d20 without classes, use the system as presented in that book. Green Ronin's supers book (appearing later this year?) will be level-less. You want no levels, use the system from that book.

My point is, that "flaws" of d20 are gradually, one by one, being "patched" or given alternatives. Sure, you may have to purchase a number of products and cobble them together to get exactly the system you want, but don't you do that in GURPS already anyway? It's only a matter of time before d20 will serve as a great system, depending on which modular components you use, to play any genre I can imagine.

 

[Tsyr]

Which is a damn shame if you ask me. I like D20, but I also think Storyteller has a lot going for it. And it's a shame that it's tied so closely to the love-it-or-hate-it World of Darkness. Because of White Wolf's sales expectations based on WoD, other non-WoD games haven't gotten the shake they deserve (Adventure!, Trinity, etc.) And White Wolf seems more interested in expanding the already over-populated WoD than in trying out other genres.

Well, thus far, Exalted is doing pretty well... It's part of what they call the "Age of Sorrows"... It's not world of darkness though, its not even depressing (Unless your a dragon blooded, then it kinda is...)... actualy its a really hopefull setting.

I must disagree with you though... I own I think every "main" book for whitewolf, and some of the "demi main books" like Kindred of the East and Hengenyoki... But I really don't like the storyteller system. IMHO, it's a very sub-par system for most things... like combat. And while combat isn't the focus of some WW games (Exalted its pretty damn important, and in werewolf... argueably vampire...), I still think the combat rules could have been done different.

 

[Henry]

Have any of you read Monte Cook's latest "Line of Sight" article, about the "Genius of D&D?" Boy, if the anti-WotC pro-decipher fans read that page, they'd be "crossing their eyes over the clueless" for sure...

In Monte's perspective, Classes and levels (along with hit points and the concept of dungeon-based play) were two of the things that have kept D&D both the most popular RPG and from fading into oblivion years ago.

And he's got a lotta evidence to back it up. You've gotta think about it - no other RPG has lasted in the sales numbers it has and staying power of its players for the past 25 years - ever. Its sales figures, from TSR till now, register in the millions of copies sold, versus the thousands or tens of thousands of copies sold by all other companies.

And only recently (past two years) has D&D managed to reach the sales goals of the early, heady 1980's. He's on to something - for MOST players, D&D's simplicity of play formula has kept gamers playing it for significant portions of their lives. I have played D&D for 2/3rds of my life - in other words, I can barely remember when I WASN'T playing D&D.

Most Pen and Paper roleplaying gamers play D&D more often than any other game. And "ain't 'cause we stupid" It's because it has a consistent formula that makes it fun to play and easy to customize.

 

[Ranger REG]

The best person to ask about this is Eric Noah.

Why?

Because about two months ago, he totally re-worked Morrus' d20 company links page to remove dead links to companies that either changed web sites or who weren't around, and to add new companies that have just started out. Unless I am mistaken, he still maintains that portion of ENWorld.

Yeah, I hear most of the startup d20 companies folded without even getting off the ground (didn't publish their first commercial product). Correct me if I'm wrong.

But those who do managed to get their first product in the market are still in business for now, at least those who sell printed products.

 

[Corinth]

I like D20, but I also think Storyteller has a lot going for it. And it's a shame that it's tied so closely to the love-it-or-hate-it World of Darkness. Because of White Wolf's sales expectations based on WoD, other non-WoD games haven't gotten the shake they deserve (Adventure!, Trinity, etc.)

*ahem*

Exalted, by WWGS's own admission, sells better than Vampire: The Masquerade ever did. Exalted is not a World of Darkness game, though it has many similiar trappings. Now, if only WWGS and WotC could strike a deal similiar to what was done between Chaosium and WotC for Call of Cthulhu: I'd gladly buy a D20 version of Exalted.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Something from that thread that I found truly silly was the claim that for every non-WotC d20 product sold WotC sold a copy of its core rulebooks. How so? I buy at least 3 third-party d20 books a month and I only have one copy of the core rulebooks. I know that what they are trying to say (I hope) is that you can't use third-party d20 books without owning the core rulebooks, but the fact that they said it this way, and then gomer #2 chimes in with an "EXACTLY!" struck me as funny.

 

[Ranger REG]

Have any of you read Monte Cook's latest "Line of Sight" article, about the "Genius of D&D?" Boy, if the anti-WotC pro-decipher fans read that page, they'd be "crossing their eyes over the clueless" for sure...

Actually those guys that stays only on the Decipher board (as opposed to the open-minded community of the Trek-RPG.net board) don't know what they're talking. A simple case of ignorance.