D&D 4E Inquiry: How do 4E fans feel about 4E Essentials?

[pemerton]

my character was all over the battlefield, throwing down the daily right off the bat (because it gave his companions a bonus to all defenses), then handing out saving throws and pulling people from the brink of death. It was almost like Gandalf racing back and forth, keeping the team working. You know, like a boss.

I love seeing someone else pick up on that comparison of the 4e encounter healing (whether Cleric or Warlord) to Gandalf keeping up the spirits of the defenders of Minas Tirith. For me it's one of the really strong thematic aspects of 4e. We don't have to just pretend that these characters are interacting and supporting each other during the fight - we actually see it happening in front of us, through the action declarations and resolutions!

An advantage of the essentials classes is that their ability scores were more focused. A Cavalier just had to worry about STR and CHA (and really, just STR), while a core paladin had to worry about STR, CHA, and WIS.

Well in practice I think one of STR or CHA gets dumped. The CHA paladin in my game that went to 30th ended up with STR 14. And my STR paladin I played at low Heroic and then at low-to-mid Paragon had middling CHA.

In the PHB there are some levels where there are no suitable powers for a STR paladin, but DIvine Power fixed that, and I think before it came out I fixed it for my STR paladin by multi-classing into Warlord.

 

[pemerton]

If it isn't too much trouble, could you elaborate on this topic. What changed about the classes?

(as I stated in my OP, I know absolutely nothing about the Essentials line except that it exists)

@Campbell and @(Psi)SeveredHead have identified one issue with the changes to player-side resource suites: with asymmetry in the relationship between at-will and daily abilities, the GM has to manage the pacing of the adventuring day. Whereas in core 4e that's not the case.

A second consequence of the same change is this: there is no longer a uniform suite of player-side resources that is able to be used as "currency" for non-combat action resolution (eg in skill challenges, as per the discussions in the two DMGs).

Why you couldn't recharge Martial dailies by spending HP or surges still baffled me. A fighter spamming dailies by sacrificing their stamina just makes too much sense.

I think there is a good practical reason for this: if an ability is a bit "good", or even verging on broken, it won't actually break the game if it can't be used every time. Allowing recharges changes that.

Eg CaGI is awesome; but I think a fighter who could come close to CaGI-ing at will might be a bit strong.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Why you couldn't recharge Martial dailies by spending HP or surges still baffled me. A fighter spamming dailies by sacrificing their stamina just makes too much sense. The Slayer not churning their healimg surges into a Power Attack daily felt like a missed opportunity.

While I would not make this a universal feature of Martial powers, it would certainly work as a possible feature of some Martial powers, that never appears on non-Martial powers. E.g. just as "reliable" is a keyword that means a power isn't expended if it misses all targets, "quickening" could be a keyword that allows a power to be re-gained by spending a healing surge (or perhaps some number of surges, e.g. quickening 1 could be for regaining encounter powers, while quickening 2 or higher could be for potent daily powers--meaning there's a huge cost to their use, but potential benefit).

This should, of course, be accompanied by the addition of features or keywords that improve some (but not all) powers of the other power sources, to enhance the flavor differences between them.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

IF it's not the same argument despite looking like it, explain it instead of making snide insults.

I did explain it. “Fighters have to be strikers” is not the same thing as “Fighters shouldn’t be stuck in one combat role with no way to build a striker fighter, or even just any striker martial with heavy weapons or sword and board, or any load out other than the dual wield or archery choice of Rangers and the light weapons of rogues, especially because not everyone who wants to play a heavy arms and armor martial character wants to mess around with marking and the playstyle it requires to be effective.”

If you refuse to admit that those are different arguments, I’m not going to engage any further, and you’re welcome to continue to pretend that people who disagree with you are just making inane, senseless, arguments, rather than listening to what they’re actually saying.

 

[Garthanos]

I always wondered if people thought class names floated over their characters heads, I still do.

 

[Garthanos]

While I would not make this a universal feature of Martial powers, it would certainly work as a possible feature of some Martial powers, that never appears on non-Martial powers. E.g. just as "reliable" is a keyword that means a power isn't expended if it misses all targets, "quickening" could be a keyword that allows a power to be re-gained by spending a healing surge (or perhaps some number of surges, e.g. quickening 1 could be for regaining encounter powers, while quickening 2 or higher could be for potent daily powers--meaning there's a huge cost to their use, but potential benefit).

This should, of course, be accompanied by the addition of features or keywords that improve some (but not all) powers of the other power sources, to enhance the flavor differences between them.

Yes, this I think it could be done with sufficient careful regulation. Melee types often need HS resources more (and have more of them).

I love calling it Quickening too, (life force rising within you)

 

[Minigiant]

While I would not make this a universal feature of Martial powers, it would certainly work as a possible feature of some Martial powers, that never appears on non-Martial powers. E.g. just as "reliable" is a keyword that means a power isn't expended if it misses all targets, "quickening" could be a keyword that allows a power to be re-gained by spending a healing surge (or perhaps some number of surges, e.g. quickening 1 could be for regaining encounter powers, while quickening 2 or higher could be for potent daily powers--meaning there's a huge cost to their use, but potential benefit).

This should, of course, be accompanied by the addition of features or keywords that improve some (but not all) powers of the other power sources, to enhance the flavor differences between them.

Of course. I've always thought 50%+ of dailies should have a power source based keyword. Like Martial could get Reliable, Quickening, and Stance.

Arcane could get Convert Element and Metamagic.

Divine should Convert Radiance or Infuse healing.

 

[Garthanos]

Of course. I've always thought 50%+ of dailies should have a power source based keyword. Like Martial could get Reliable, Quickening, and Stance.

Arcane could get Convert Element and Metamagic.

Divine should Convert Radiance or Infuse healing.

"Convert" ?

 

[Minigiant]

"Convert" ?

For Arcance, Convert fire damage to cold damage and vice versa

For Divine, Convert radiance damage to necrotic damage +1d6 per tier necrotic damage.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

For Arcance, Convert fire damage to cold damage and vice versa

For Divine, Convert radiance damage to necrotic damage +1d6 per tier necrotic damage.

Hmm. Not sure how I feel about that. A large number of Divine characters would never use this conversion to necrotic damage because it doesn't fit the flavor of their character. "Necrotic" may only be a damage type, but it carries very strong flavor implications, and I wouldn't necessarily want players to feel like they have to "be evil" in order to do damage, if that makes sense.

Edit: Given that Divine is implicitly the "leader-biased source" (like the other sources with their biases, e.g. Martial/Striker, Arcane/Controller, and Primal/Defender), perhaps something supportive to your allies would be good? E.g. "Rally" (one ally within range gets +1 to all NADs until the end of their next turn) or "Succor" (choose one ally within 5 squares, that ally gains THP; amount could be tier-based or based on the power of your holy symbol or the like).