Inspiration is a PC-on-PC Social Skills Question

Show me where Martin Luther King said "you must worship me or i won't grant you extra (civil rights) movement."
And yet he's one of the most respected figures of the 20th century. Of course he didn't ask for it; he would be respected less if he had.

And you're saying that a player coming into a game saying "My character is just like Martin Luther King" doesn't expect the other PCs to respect that character? Really?

There's never been any need to do so. That's only one possible way of imagining inspiration, and a pretty hackneyed one, at that.
Seems like it's the one that leaps first to everyone's minds, especially since some are now saying it should extend to the cleric's Bless spell as well.

And, you didn't even do it at the time, it's only in retrospect, when you go looking for a problem, that you've fabricated one.
I didn't imagine it in in-game terms at all at the time. It's only in retrospect, when I try to figure out what was happening between the characters, that I realize that we probably should have had some serious discussion about this at the table.
 

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Seems like it's the one that leaps first to everyone's minds, especially since some are now saying it should extend to the cleric's Bless spell as well.
It didn't leap to your mind when you were actually playing, only 'in retrospect' now that you've heard naysayers going on about it. And it took them 7 years to come up with it, too. Just another in a long line of baseless, spurious objections.
 


It didn't leap to your mind when you were actually playing, only 'in retrospect' now that you've heard naysayers going on about it.
The only reason it didn't was because I wasn't trying to envision what was happening in-fiction at all. The problem, in that case, was with me not paying attention to the fiction. And yes, it was the "naysayers" who made me realize that the most obvious explanation for what was happening in the fiction was that my character was revering the warlord and obediently following her lead. I haven't heard a solid alternative so far, just a lot of "It doesn't have to be like that, but your table can figure out for themselves what it actually is."
 
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What does that have to do with "respect"?
A typical D&D party is not comprised of hierarchical command structures designed to enforce and illicit subordination. Rather, they are generally a group of peers sharing a common goal, often friendships. To say an individual in that group singles themselves out to be a leader, nearly universally requires at least some degree of respect, admiration, or confidence above and beyond that bestowed on others in the group. How else is it given?
 

And yet he's one of the most respected figures of the 20th century. Of course he didn't ask for it; he would be respected less if he had.
He was also assassinated.

Clearly, he did not get the respect of everyone.

And you're saying that a player coming into a game saying "My character is just like Martin Luther King" doesn't expect the other PCs to respect that character? Really?
In my game every PC respects every other PC by default. I image that's the way it is in most D&D games.

But if someone is playing a racists paladin dwarf who swore an oath of vengeance against drow, and someone else played MLK, then i would expect conflict. You know, roleplaying.
 

That's no different than saying that the Warlord and it's fans must be excluded because it was from 4e, and that's very much at odds with the spirit in which 5e was conceived.

If you want to dictate to people what they can and can't play, do it to their faces, at the table - don't try to get WotC to do your dirty work for you.

It probably is a 4e issue. There are many things I didn't like about 4e. That's why I disappeared from the D&D community and moved to Pathfinder.

The goal of being inclusive is admirable, but it will not be 100% achievable. There are going to be parts of 4e that people like and want in 5e that other people don't like and don't want in 5e. So what do you do? You can't please both groups.

For instance, I don't like the "every square is 5' rule, even diagonal". But there is an option to use the 3.5 rule, which makes more sense to me and my group, so that is what we use. There are other options that make the game more 4e like. Shorter Short Rests and Healing Surges and things, but they are optional. So I just ignore those options. Feats are optional, but are allowed in AL while the others aren't.

4e has a certain feel to the game. The Warlord embodies that feeling. 5e has a different feeling that, while not completely incompatible, is different by default. It's my opinion that the Warlord should be an option that must be explicitly added. I don't think it should be AL legal.

Don't kid yourself: everyone goes through that about some pet peeve or other. Awful-Good Paladins. Psionics. Kender. Meta-gaming. Threats to immersion. Class imbalances. Hit points. Vancian casting. Gnomes. Whatever. Burying annoyance isn't as good (for you) as letting it go, or even opening up to the possibility that there's some positives to the thing that annoys you, or, at least, being honest with the folks you're gaming with about what you want from the game.

I will agree with you on everything here. All very reasonable.

But, sure, venting about it on-line, no problem. Demanding WotC take your venting as reason to exclude options from the game, OTOH, not cool.

Well, I am expressing my opinion of what 5e should be. In my opinion the Warlord does not fit the feel D&D 5e (or D&D at all for that matter, but that's just my opinion). In terms of bringing together the community it only servers to divide players in to those that want it and those that don't. And of course those that don't care one way or the other (probably the majority).

But I understand wanting more options. So include it as an optional class for those that want to add it to their game, just like other optional 4e rules that are available.
 

A typical D&D party is not comprised of hierarchical command structures designed to enforce and illicit subordination. Rather, they are generally a group of peers sharing a common goal, often friendships. To say an individual in that group singles themselves out to be a leader, nearly universally requires at least some degree of respect, admiration, or confidence above and beyond that bestowed on others in the group. How else is it given?
By function.

When you need religious guidance. The cleric is the religious leader.
When there's a magical barrier. The wizard is the arcane leader.
When you need to deal damage. The fighter is the damage leader.
When there's a trapped room. The rogue is the skill leader.
When moral is low. The marshal is the inspirational leader.
etc...


That said, i do agree that "leader" as a bad choice of words for 4e.
 

The only reason it didn't was because I wasn't trying to envision what was happening in-fiction at all. The problem, in that case, was with me not paying attention to the fiction.
That's not a problem, at all. Do you normally envision the 'fiction' corresponding to absolutely everything every character does? Do you analyze it's implications at the table? No, clearly you weren't. It's only when you go intentionally looking for a problem that you create it. The point of the game is to have fun, not to go digging for imaginary problem and blowing them out of proportion when you can just let your imagination go in directions that /are/ fun, instead, or, worst case, skip over the boring/annoying bits...

I haven't heard a solid alternative so far, just a lot of "It doesn't have to be like that, but your table can figure out for themselves what it actually is."
Offered quite early on:

Good tactics could indirectly result in better morale, if you see a tactic succeed it could buoy your resolve, if you have seen tactics pull victory from the jaws of defeat before you could be less inclined to give up. It would be a case of the character not being inspiring so much as the events the character set in motion. Inspiration needn't be a rousing speech (which your average RPG nerd might not be too likely to deliver convincingly, and another such might, perhaps one on the cynical side, be all too inclined to imagine as hackneyed), it needn't even be positive. You could be inspired to do better by words, or, perhaps by deeds, or even by wanting to show up a rival. That one PC inspires another, giving him a bonus, needn't mean the inspired PC looks up to or respects the inspiring one. In genre, heroes may get inspired by other heroes, they can also be inspired by a plucky side-kick, despised ally of necessity, or bitter rival. The nature of the relationship would inform the narrative, and may or may not have a bearing on the resolution of the mechanics.
It's actually a topic that's been covered earlier, too (for that matter, much earlier, all the way back to the 4e PH1 and the discussion of the 'Leader' role, that it doesn't imply authority nor making decisions for everyone else). More recently, though, in this temporary forum, we've gone into the range of concepts the warlord might enable. The plucky side-kick, the faithful retainer always ready with good advice, the pragmatic tactician, the instigator who goes off half-cocked, the manipulator, the bitter rival you feel driven to out-do at every turn, even the perennial victim inspiring heroes to come to the rescue.

I don't know how much detail or how many examples it'd take for you to acknowledge there are 'solid' alternatives to the Zap Brannigan stereotype the naysayers have manufactured, but I'm willing to give it a few walls of text if that's what you need.

The goal of being inclusive is admirable, but it will not be 100% achievable. There are going to be parts of 4e that people like and want in 5e that other people don't like and don't want in 5e. So what do you do? You can't please both groups.
You can include both groups by including the desirable-to-some material outside the Standard Game, and letting those who don't want it ignore it. For instance, feats are a 3.x-ism that not every old-school D&Der is down with. They're also officially optional, the DM has to opt into them, and, even if he does, if you don't like feats, you can take all your ASIs as stat bumps.

4e has a certain feel to the game. The Warlord embodies that feeling. 5e has a different feeling that, while not completely incompatible, is different by default. It's my opinion that the Warlord should be an option that must be explicitly added.
At this point, that's all it /can/ be. The Standard Game is defined by the PH and set in stone. Like SCAG's Bladesinger and PDK, any forthcoming Warlord would be very much optional material, probably see the light of AL at most once in whatever season coincided with the product it appeared in.

Classes, though, like any player option, are, well, optional by nature. Even if the Warlord were in the PH1, no one at a given table is forced to play one. It's not like 1e when you 'needed a Cleric.' A group would have to have something more against the Cleric, Druid, Bard, and Paladin before they'd even begin to feel pressured into 'needing' a Warlord.

'Optional' is a given.
 
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When you need religious guidance. The cleric is the religious leader.
Disagree. Anyone with the acolyte background can be a priest (they even get church powers and considerations even a cleric would not necessarily have - unless they also chose to be an acolyte... many often do).

When there's a magical barrier. The wizard is the arcane leader.
Wizards aren't the only arcane casters. Not even close. Heck, in our last campaign, the EK was our arcana expert. A fighter. Yeah. A fighter was our "arcane leader". So no here as well.

When you need to deal damage. The fighter is the damage leader.
Unprovable. Situational. And, really, not even a "thing". What does that even mean? "Damage leader"? Is that a fillable position?

When there's a trapped room. The rogue is the skill leader.
How so? What is it that makes you believe such a claim?

When moral is low. The marshal is the inspirational leader.
No. Whomever roleplays as such would be. Or, for those of you who are crunch concerned, whomever has the inspiring leader feat is.

BTW, weren't you just saying somewhere that "this is 5e we are talking about"? I would appreciate it if you would adhere to the same standards you ask of others.

That said, i do agree that "leader" as a bad choice of words for 4e.
Agreed. Too much baggage. I get that you aren't as hung up on porting over said baggage as some others around here. That's not nuthin'.
 

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