Inspiration is a PC-on-PC Social Skills Question

Which would be great if you could get the healing without adjusting your attitude. But how would that play out in the game world? How do you "heal" someone without magic and without adjusting their attitude?
I don't know what you mean by "adjusting their attitude"?

Do you mean, for instance, rousing someone's spirits or restoring their hope? If the player of the injured PC in fact decides that his/her PC's spirits are not roused, and/or that hope is not restored, then s/he can (presumably) decline the healing. Certainly in 4e that was the case, so I don't see why 5e would be different.

If you have something else in mind by "adjusting their attitude", then I'm not sure what it is.

And why can only the Warlord do it?
Because the ability is silo-ed into the warlord class.

The question is like asking why only a sorcerer benefits from having a dragon ancestor, or why only a warlock benefits from selling his/her soul to the devil, or why the gods only answer the prayers of clerics and paladins. Whatever the answer to these questions within the fiction - and in my experience, most tables don't bother to try and answer them in the fiction - those answers have to bow to the mechanical constraints on PC building that are part-and-parcel of a D&D-style class system.
 

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I'm not following this. Why is there no circumvention of player agency in skill type interactions?
I think the answer to this is clear enough, though I haven't read on to [MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION]'s answer yet (but in the earlier post, FrogReaver said that a roll is allowed only if the result is uncertain, and the babarian's player gets to decide whether or not it is uncertain that the barbarian will change his/her mind about the rogue).

My question: do you except that the use of Bless circumvents player agency via mind control (much like casting Charm Person on a fellow PC, but with no save allowed). If not, why not? (After all, it is an Enchantment effect.) If yes, then do you think it is a particularly controversial spell? And if the answer to that question is "no", then why do you think warlord inspiration would be any more controversial as far as player agency considerations are concerned?
 

Oddly enough, it's that you can keep repeating that magic and non-magic are interchangeable, but that doesn't make it a valid argument.
I think you are missing [MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION]'s point.

The difference between magic and "mundane" is a difference in the fiction. But it's not different at the table. Whether the mechanic used by another player to affect my PC's feeling is (in the fiction) magic or not, it's still another player dictating how I feel. For instance, whether or not a particular table treats bardic inspiration as magical doesn't change the fact that use of the ability means my PC is inspired, although another player got to determine that. And whether or not a particular table actually cares that Bless is a no-save Enchantment effect, using the spell still changes how my PC feels about the ingame situation.

There may be some players whose attitude towards usurpation of agency differs on whether, in the fiction, it is done by magical or non-magical means. But [MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION] is, in my view reasonably, expressing doubt about the logic of this, and whether it is particularly widespread.
 


This is getting close to the idea. So consider if a Cleric's Bless started with the following statement:

"The target is inspired by the glory and power of your deity..."

OR

"The target is filled with love and devotion to your deity..."
The 5e Bless spell has no flavour text. But it is an Enchantment spell, and according to the rules an Enchantment spell is one which "affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior."

So between the ordinary language meaning of the word "bless", plus the rules text for Enchantment, how do you think Bless works, if not by inspiring by the glory and power the deity, whose grace fills the affected character?

There is an additional puzzle about Bless: what happens when the paladin of Bahamut blesses a character, who then goes off and makes an attack roll against an innocent peasant from behind? Does the spell still work? And why? This is another of those corner cases which arise when inspirational/relationship-based mechanics are expressed in general terms.
 
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I resolve PC on PC action by mutual agreement or by leaving it to the recipient of the action.

In essence, you don't have to be inspired, charmed, cured, blessed, or whatever, if you don't want to be.

Never comes up, though. Most people want to be healed or buffed.

The whole "what if I don't find the warlord inspiring?" argument is contrarian.
in virtually every situation where another PC is giving them a mechanical benefit at the cost of having to agree their character was inspired by a particular character that the player will automatically choose a fluff that allows them to get the buff as opposed to a fluff that does not. The only exception is if it's something really important regarding their character concept.

Why does this work in actual play so often? Because no one maps out traits about their characters like or dislike of music or like or dislike of halflings or like or dislike of whatever. And even then if they generally dislike any of those things they can also say that your particular song or halfling or whatever is an exception to the characters general dislike.

The point is that there is always fluff they can use to establish why their character was inspired by something and once the sensible fluff bridge is cross what real reason does the player have to not choose such fluffs in these situations unless it's for something he feels is going to be really important regarding his character.

So yes, i can understand your concerns on a philosophical level. Can you understand why your concerns aren't actually a problem in actual play?
I agree with both these posts. I think they are consistent with what I've said in some posts above (and on another thread in this subforum) - at most tables there is just not this degree of drilling down into the fiction, and if there is then the players will just author the fiction they need to make it work.

the target of the spell doesn't have to love you for casting it, even if they accept the effect.
the most obvious explanation for what was happening in the fiction was that my character was revering the warlord and obediently following her lead.
I do dislike having to picture my character as worshiping the warlord's wonderfulness every time she handed out bonuses. And that's in spite of the fact that I have no personal beef with the player of the character.
Well--it probably doesn't help that people keep holding up Aragorn and/or Gandalf as examples. I mean, practically every good-aligned character in the books holds them in almost holy reverence
I think this is a misreading of LotR. Frodo, Faramir, Boromir, Legolas et al do not hold Gandalf or Aragorn in holy reverence. That would be sacrilege; and for Gandalf or Aragorn to accept such reverence would be to commit the sin of pride of which Sauron is guilty (and arguably the Ringwraiths also, in their lust for domination which led them to take the rings from Sauron).

Gandalf and Aragorn aren't worshipped. They are loved, admired and respected.

Which leads me to my main point: I am extremely puzzled by your "most obvious" explanation.
[MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION] has already mentioned upthread, mulitple times, that one person might inspire another through the words they use, and the strength of their personality, without the inspired person loving or admiring them.

I would add that it is not uncommon for one person to come to respect another person because that other person is inspiring to them; that is, respect is an effect and not a cause of inspiration. I also think that it is possible to be inspired or motivated by someone you don't particularly care for, at least in certain circumstances.

But even if we put all these cases to one side, and treat admiration, love or respect as the paradigm - I don't see the problem. D&D is based around party play. In the typical D&D campaign the PCs spend nearly all their time together, having one another's backs in life and death situations. They regularly take risks on one another's behalf, contribute large sums of money to raising one another from the dead, etc.

To me, it is natural that such people should feel admiration, respect and/or love for one another. Which means that this narrative of the warlord doesn't raise any problems - the reason the warlord is able to inspire my PC is because s/he is someone whom my PC respects and admires.

A typical D&D party is not comprised of hierarchical command structures designed to enforce and illicit subordination.
This raises the same issue. Why would anyone suppose that subordination is a necessary condition of inspiration? Legolas, for instance, isn't subordinate to Aragorn - Aragorn is his friend and companion, not his master.

The only explanation for the above statement is that you clearly do not understand what "agency" means.

<snip>

The real question is, who's the bigger jerk? Bill and Jim for invalidating their friend's choice of character by exercising their agency? Or Mike for putting them in that position in the first place by making a character designed to rob them of said agency?
It's a warlord issue because what you want in a warlord necessarily creates this damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-dont situation.
It's only "damned if you do or damned if you don't" if there is some sort of cost to playing my PC as respecting or admiring your PC. But why is that a cost? How is that inconsistent with the way that most D&D party play unfolds?

In other posts on the warlord I have conjectured that the real source of the warlord divide is differing conceptions of protagonists, as either self-sufficient atoms, or as related to and even dependent on others. It seems to me that only if you have the former conception would it be some sort of burden on your agency, as a player, to play your PC as admiring and respecting a fellow PC.
 

We're still waiting for one that isn't completely broken and/or a player agency crushing nightmare. When will yours be ready for review?
We're still waiting for you to show any player agency is taken away by any of the features.

I'll grant you that player agency may be taken away by a passive aggressive player. Or just a regular aggressive player. Or a char-op player telling people the best moves. Or any a romantic partner wanting favortism. Or a controlling DM. Or any number of other inter-social reasons.

I'll also grant you that "leader" was a misleading term in 4e. And while they specifically mentioned that it did not actually mean the party leader, and that such a role was gained though role playing, that part was hidden and easily skipped over. In addition there was the ubiquitous use of "ally" on the powers, which meant willing target.

But i see no class feature in 4e or 5e that does it. Except, oddly, 5e bless and cure wounds.
 

And now I think we are where every Warlord thread ends up.

The original question was (and I'm paraphrasing): Is there a difference between PC-on-PC social skill use and inspirational healing?

In my opinion they are the same thing. They flow from the same source. One PC is convincing the other, through mechanics, to believe or feel a certain way.
Yes. Except one is forced, the other is by choice.

But charisma has been in the game since day 1.
 

Kind of like asking why a fighter only gets 4 attacks. Or why a paladin cannot 2 weapon fight as well as a ranger. Or why only a rogue can sneak attack. Kind of see where this is going?

So we get the Warlord as a Feat problem. Right now anyone can inspire another character (although with the mechanical benefit determined by the DM). As soon as you introduce the Warlord, now you have to take levels in Warlord to inspire.
 


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