Inspire Courage + Greatness + Heriocs

[Artoomis]

Here's the bit related to that which makes me think the designer's intent is to exclude multiple concurrent Bardic Music effects from the same bard:

Now, that's not totally clear, but it seems the designers attempt to equate Bardic Music with spellcasting (verbal only), and Bardic Music explicitly precludes spellcasting -- even spells which lack a verbal component.

Cheers, -- N

Wow, what a stretch. All that says is, if you have any questions about how being deafened and the 20% failure chance works, go see the rules on casting spells with verbal components while being deafened.

That says nothing else, not does it even imply anything else. I do not know how you get "intent" to be able to maintain only one song ability at a time out of that.

That said, if they did intend starting an "Inspire" ability to require stopping the maintenance of another, they did a pretty poor job of translating that supposed intent into reaility.

 

[Nifft]

Once per day per bard level, a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him (usually including himself, if desired). While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance.

Okay, Artoomis, how are you playing this second song? (Don't say you're playing an instrument for one and singing the other, because that's already covered.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

Wow, what a stretch.

Intent is always like that. If it were crystal clear, I wouldn't bother saying "intent" at all.

-- N

 

[Christian]

Anyway, I wouldn't have a problem with the effects of several different bard songs from stacking.

I don't think anybody is questioning the stacking ... Just to clarify, this is what's under discussion. If my bard starts singing on round 1 of the combat to inspire courage, that effect boost his allies for as long as he continues the song and five rounds after. In the second round, the bard doesn't need to spend an action to continue the song, but there are things he can't do. If he attacks with his bow, for instance, the song can continue; but if he casts glitterdust, it ends, and the five-round countdown starts.

The question is, what if his choice of action in the second round is to start an inspire greatness bard song? There's no question, as I said, about the effects stacking--the bonus types are clearly called out in the descriptions of the abilities. What we're wondering about is whether this action ends the inspire courage song and starts that five-round countdown to the end of the effect, or if the bard can continue both songs at once. The pro is that 'using bardic music' is not on the explicit list of things you can't do while maintaining a bardice music effect. The con is, as far as I can tell, that it's just obvious that you can't sing two different songs at once. Which is probably true, but that doesn't mean it's the rule.

It doesn't seem like it matters. The above sequence is kind of the standard sequence for my current bard. Round 1: buff everybody with inspire courage. Round 2: buff the psychic warrior with inspire greatness. If the first bardsong ends when the second begins, then in round 6 we'd be losing the inspire courage buff; but usually, our actions in round 4 or 5 are 'loot the bodies', so who cares? But in those rare situations where we know well in advance that a combat encounter is about to start, then along with all of the regular pre-encounter buffs, we could start the fight with everybody under the effects of every song I know. Sure, that burns up a lot of my daily uses--but I never run out*, so why not? Especially if it means that round *2* is 'loot the bodies'.

Honestly, I'm not even going to ask my DM about this. He'd just laugh his butt off. RAW or not, it's mad unbalanced, I think ...

*2 Extra Music feats. Bwah-hah-hah!

 

[Artoomis]

Intent is always like that. If it were crystal clear, I wouldn't bother saying "intent" at all.

-- N

No, intent is often clear when you take things as a whole. In this case, they may very well have intended that only one song ability could be used at a time. Nothing in the text makes that intent clear in the least, but maybe that's what was intended.

However, if so, this is the world's worst job of carrying that intent over into the actual rules.

 

[Artoomis]

Okay, Artoomis, how are you playing this second song? (Don't say you're playing an instrument for one and singing the other, because that's already covered.)

Cheers, -- N

Who knows? It's magic!

Okay, seriously, what about this:

Round 1:

"Have Courage, my lads, we'll win...." (Inspire Courage)

Round 2

"Have Courage, my lads, we've got 'em on the run..." (Maintain Inspire Courage)

Round 3:

"You guys are Great, whack 'em hard... Have Courage, my lads, we've almost get 'em..." (Start Inspire Greatness and Maintain Inspire Courage)

Who knows how this would actually work, because it's a Su ability and it only exists in a fantasy setting. .

 

[Artoomis]

...

Honestly, I'm not even going to ask my DM about this. He'd just laugh his butt off. RAW or not, it's mad unbalanced, I think ...

Well, I was only pointing out something in RAW that many have overlooked. My own DM won't let me do it, but agrees it is indeed RAW.

 

[Nifft]

Who knows? It's magic!

So are Wands, but you need a free hand to use one.

Round 1: "Have Courage, my lads, we'll win...." (Inspire Courage)

Round 2: "Have Courage, my lads, we've got 'em on the run..." (Maintain Inspire Courage)

Round 3: "You guys are Great, whack 'em hard... Have Courage, my lads, we've almost get 'em..." (Start Inspire Greatness; Inspire Courage remains for 5 rounds)

For most practical purposes, both of our interpretations agree that these two effects would stack for at least 5 rounds. As a wise poster above has mentioned, that's more than enough for most fights.

The main reason I don't like the multiple maintenance thingy is that a Warforged Bard (or other non-sleeper) could maintain all of the non-concentration effects indefinitely. :\

Cheers, -- N

 

[Elethiomel]

The main reason I don't like the multiple maintenance thingy is that a Warforged Bard (or other non-sleeper) could maintain all of the non-concentration effects indefinitely. :\

Heard around the gaming table:
"Oh, these songs? They don't count against my daily limit. They're from last week. It's not like this campaign gives us any social encounters.

 

[roguerouge]

The con is, as far as I can tell, that it's just obvious that you can't sing two different songs at once. Which is probably true, but that doesn't mean it's the rule.

It's not true, however.

First, one can sing two songs in a round (the structure, not the game mechanic).

Second, and even better, is this idea:

"When there is more than one independent melodic line happening at the same time in a piece of music, we say that the music is contrapuntal. The independent melodic lines are called counterpoint. The music that is made up of counterpoint can also be called polyphony, or one can say that the music is polyphonic or speak of the polyphonic texture of the music. Traditionally, vocal music is more likely to be described as polyphony and instrumental music is more likely to be described as counterpoint. But all of these terms refer to two or more independent, simultaneous melodies. "Simultaneous" means the melodies are happening at the same time. "Independent" means that at any given moment what is happening in one melody (both in the rhythms and in the pitches) is probably not the same thing that is happening in the other melody."

Source: http://cnx.org/content/m11634/latest/

The two bardic music effects can be two different songs or two different parts of the same song.

There may be game-level reasons to ban this move, but it's clearly something that you can describe.