Inspire Courage + Greatness + Heriocs

[roguerouge]

I'm sorry, Nifft, but I'm missing the major drift of your argument. It seems like there are a few specific ways to argue against something like this: rules, power balance, table, and story. With story, you make this ruling because otherwise something is added into your game that you don't want or find impossible to describe. With table, you make this ruling because it makes the game too hard to run for the benefit gained. With power balance, you make this ruling because you feel it robs the fun of the other players without this power or makes for a lot of work for you to re-jigger the monsters to compensate.

At a story level, I can see two bardic songs at once as working through a verse-chorus structure, through counterpoint, and through contrapuntal music. It's not hard to describe. At a table level, it's easier to keep track of 1 end point of bardic music than two or three. At a game balance level, I'm more worried about the wizard, cleric, and druid.

So it's really at the level of rules that you'll have to make your case for me and my campaign. Can you explain your case when it comes to the rules for me again? 'Cause I'm just not getting it and it may be that I need to see what you're saying all in one place.

 

[Nifft]

The balance issue comes up when you get a Bard with Melodic Casting and Subsonics -- and gets worse when it's a Bard who doesn't need to sleep, such as a Warforged. Then the balance issue isn't that he's stronger than a Cleric or Druid, it's that he's a no-brainer. He's turned a tactical choice into a permanent buff effect. This would be a boring PC to play, but would be a very convenient Cohort. ("What's your Cohort's name?" -- "I call him +2 to everything.")

To put it another way: the balance issue isn't that this Bard would be stronger than a Cleric Archer. The balance issue is that this Bard would be a perfect Cohort to make the Cleric Archer even more broken.

So it's really at the level of rules that you'll have to make your case for me and my campaign. Can you explain your case when it comes to the rules for me again? 'Cause I'm just not getting it and it may be that I need to see what you're saying all in one place.

The basic thrust is: you can't use one "slot" for two things. You can't hold a sword and a wand in one hand, you can't sing and gargle, you can't climb and play an instrument -- not at the same time.

The idea that contrapuntal music, "singing in the round", etc. somehow allows two simultaneous uses of the Perform skill isn't supported by the rules. You make a single Perform check, and abide by the result, no matter how you structure your music.

However, the rules seem to omit any link between starting a discrete song, and starting to use Bardic Music. I'd still argue that only one use of Bardic Music should apply to a single song, but that's not something the rules explicitly state. That's just my default position on handling "the rules don't say I can't", when the rules also don't say that you can.

Cheers, -- N

 

[VanRichten]

Part of the point I was trying to tell you Nifft earlier with my example is that Perform can and must bought as different skills for different types.

Such that if you wanted to have Perform in String, Singing, and Dancing. You have to buy all 3 skills seperately and they could all have seperate rankings.

In this effect all 3 examples as I stated can be used. In fact they are mentioned in the Complete Adventurer in stating where a bard can perform two simultaneous songs when singing and playing a string instrument. If we extrapolate this to something such as Tap Shoes we could easily pull off a 3rd effect using Perform Dance.

So you could sing a song for Inspiring Courage.

Play a guitar to Inspire Greatness.

And Tap Dance your heart out to Inspire Heroics.

In this case all make a sound that everyone can hear. For which the basis of the bardic music ability is set. It is not just a singing or poetic effect it is a Sonic effect.

And it is very possible to be poetic with the playing of an instrument and even dancing with tap shoes.

 

[Artoomis]

The balance issue comes up when you get a Bard with Melodic Casting and Subsonics ...")

This argument applies equally well to a single Inspire - for even as you see it, one could have one of the Inspire abilities up at all times.

...
...However, the rules seem to omit any link between starting a discrete song, and starting to use Bardic Music. I'd still argue that only one use of Bardic Music should apply to a single song, but that's not something the rules explicitly state. That's just my default position on handling "the rules don't say I can't", when the rules also don't say that you can.

Cheers, -- N

As near as I can tell, this basically comes down to a "gut feeling" - you think it is wrong, but the rules don't really back you up.

 

[roguerouge]

The balance issue comes up when you get a Bard with Melodic Casting and Subsonics -- and gets worse when it's a Bard who doesn't need to sleep, such as a Warforged. Then the balance issue isn't that he's stronger than a Cleric or Druid, it's that he's a no-brainer. He's turned a tactical choice into a permanent buff effect. This would be a boring PC to play, but would be a very convenient Cohort. ("What's your Cohort's name?" -- "I call him +2 to everything.")

To put it another way: the balance issue isn't that this Bard would be stronger than a Cleric Archer. The balance issue is that this Bard would be a perfect Cohort to make the Cleric Archer even more broken.

The basic thrust is: you can't use one "slot" for two things. You can't hold a sword and a wand in one hand, you can't sing and gargle, you can't climb and play an instrument -- not at the same time.

The idea that contrapuntal music, "singing in the round", etc. somehow allows two simultaneous uses of the Perform skill isn't supported by the rules. You make a single Perform check, and abide by the result, no matter how you structure your music.

However, the rules seem to omit any link between starting a discrete song, and starting to use Bardic Music. I'd still argue that only one use of Bardic Music should apply to a single song, but that's not something the rules explicitly state. That's just my default position on handling "the rules don't say I can't", when the rules also don't say that you can.

Cheers, -- N

Okay. This, I get.

I'm still going to think seriously about using it in my campaign, however. I run a 1 PC campaign with a bard/rogue as the central character. No warforged and the PC's goddess would make her swallow her tongue for taking "subsonics." If she didn't have a crystal echoblade, she wouldn't use her bardic music in combat at all. (Now fascinate, on the other hand, is what she uses to keep her low-level LG cleric wrapped around her finger.)

On a side note, Subsonics seems like a lame feat, and difficult to describe in game.

 

[Nifft]

As near as I can tell, this basically comes down to a "gut feeling" - you think it is wrong, but the rules don't really back you up.

:\

You didn't come up with the argument that I can't answer, so it's a bit odd you'd accuse someone else of not having a grasp of the rules.

-- N

 

[Nifft]

I'm still going to think seriously about using it in my campaign, however. I run a 1 PC campaign with a bard/rogue as the central character.

Single PC campaigns seem like a great place to bend rules.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Artoomis]

You're asserting motive and mind-reading, which aren't suitable for polite conversation....

Cheers, -- N

Now, now... let's not go down that road, I did not mean that to be taken personally, and apologize.

I am asserting that the argument you are proposing has little, if any, foundation in the rules. It is not a bad thing to think that my statements are wrong and assert you would not allow mutiple "Inspire" abilities to be maintianed, but I see little, if any, basis in the rules for your position.

I just have not seen how the rules back you up, and so I think it basically comes down to you don't like it. You think it is too powerful and you would not allow it.

You do not seem to have a valid rules-based counter to my observation that, irrespective of whether it is reasonable, was intended to be this way, or is balanced, the rules, as written, allow one to maintain multiple "Inspire" bardic music abilities at the same time.

Your only counter that approaches being rules-based is that one cannot have multiple performances at the same time, though in fact the rules do not specify that one actually uses a "perform" check of any sort to start or maintain any bardic song ability, only that a certain score in a perform skill is required to be able to use any one of the bardic song abilities.

And, even so, there are plenty of ways one can imagine to do mutiple performances simultaneously, even if you do not like the the idea of contrapuntal music. Think "one man band."

 

[Artoomis]

...As a consequence of Hyp's interpretation, a Dragon could use its breath weapon and "maintain song". After all, you can very likely hear the Dragon, and who's to say that flaming exhalation isn't musical?...Cheers, -- N

Actually:

(1) Core dragons do not advance by class, so you won't find a bardic dragon.

(2) Tossing that little tidbit aside, if a dragon had a bard class, or perhaps we used a dragon disciple with ranks only in perform (sing) and perfrom (oratory), sure, they could use a breath weapon and also maintain a bardic "Inspire" ability.

Let's go through the conditions that need to be met to keep an "Inspire" ability maintained:

(a) Can the bard still be heard (not silenced or otherwise unable to speak/sing)? Yes.
(b) Can a standard action be done while maintaining a bardic "Inspire" ability? Yes. (In fact, even a full-round action can be done while maintinain a bardic "Inspire" ability, as no action (or at most a "free action") is required to keep it maintained.)
(c) Can the recipients of ability still hear the bard? Yes.
(d) Is the action being performed by the bard othet than: "cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word" Yes.

Therefore, the dragon bard (or, better example, dragon disciple) may use a supernatrual breath weapon without stopping the maintenance of a bardic "inspire" ability.

To better understand this, it is best to try and stop using "real world" logic around the "song" and think about the rules.

For example:

Why would using a command word activated (or even a verbal-only spell) item force one to stop maintenance of an "Isnpoire" ability that was being maintained by using an instrument? That does not really makes sense, does it?. Not from the prespective of keeping a song going, anyway. The song itself (the non-magical aspect of it) certainly is not interrupted.

Thus, you can't really apply what might seem like common sense - you need to rely on the actual rules text, like I did in (2) above with (a) through (d).

 

[Artoomis]

:\

You didn't come up with the argument that I can't answer, so it's a bit odd you'd accuse someone else of not having a grasp of the rules.

-- N

??

I am very confused by this statement. Since there has been much discussion, can you summarize how you have, using the rules, addressed each of the following:

1. Bardic music is not, in and of itself, an ability, it is a "category" of abilities. (Thus no disallowance of "using the same ability twice" argument has any validity). Inspire Courage is a Supernatural ability. Inspire Greatness is a Supernatural ability. Fascinate is a Spell-like ability. Etc., etc.

2. Bardic music abilities that do not require concentration (which included the "Inspire" abilities) do not require an action to maintain (Though I will agree that a free action to make the appropriate sounds is implied as a requirement).

3. Prohibited actions while maintaining a bardic music ability are: "cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word" That is the list of prohibited actions in its entirety, which is really the core of my argument.

4. One may use a Supernatural ability while maintaining a bardic "inspire" ability.

5. The "Inspire" abilities are Supernatural abilities.

6. No new performance is required to start a different "Inspire" ability.

I agree that conditions that prohibit a bard from taking any actions (stunned, dead, etc.) would certainly prevent one from maintaining any bardic music abilities, though this has no bearing whatsoever on my argument.

I have no opinion (at this time) on the appropriateness of the rules as written. I'd be happy to debate that, but first let's stick to what the rules actually say.