Intelligent reflexes?

[Obryn]

Personally, I rather like that wizards don't automatically get a fantastic AC

They already don't! They're the only Cloth-only class without some sort of inherent AC bonus baked in.

Unless they spend a feat on either Leather or Unarmored Agility, Wizards are fairly near the back of the pack, AC-wise. Only flawed classes - Swarm Druids, pre-errata Starlocks - have lower. You'd be putting many Wizards into this category of flawed, impossible ACs. And while Wizards are great, IMO they simply don't deserve this sort of crippling.

-O

 

[Oldtimer]

They already don't! They're the only Cloth-only class without some sort of inherent AC bonus baked in.

Unless they spend a feat on either Leather or Unarmored Agility, Wizards are fairly near the back of the pack, AC-wise. Only flawed classes - Swarm Druids, pre-errata Starlocks - have lower. You'd be putting many Wizards into this category of flawed, impossible ACs. And while Wizards are great, IMO they simply don't deserve this sort of crippling.

-O

Oh, I was thinking "fantastic" compared to what they used to have in the old editions.

But I agree that they could need some compensation. Not just heavy armour, though. I happen to like that wizards have horrible AC.

 

[DracoSuave]

Oh, I was thinking "fantastic" compared to what they used to have in the old editions.

But I agree that they could need some compensation. Not just heavy armour, though. I happen to like that wizards have horrible AC.

The game, however, does not like characters with abysmal AC for arbitrary reasons like 'I like it when wizards die hard.'

It's not a good enough reason, and it's something I'm glad the game has walked away from

 

[Oldtimer]

The game, however, does not like characters with abysmal AC for arbitrary reasons like 'I like it when wizards die hard.'

It's not a good enough reason, and it's something I'm glad the game has walked away from

Fine, I'm weird. But it's not what I hoped the discussion would be about.

So, swordmages take a serious hit to their AC and some wizards as well. It enables the lightly armoured cleric and invoker. Warlocks might need heavy armour.

Anything else?

 

[DracoSuave]

Fine, I'm weird. But it's not what I hoped the discussion would be about.

So, swordmages take a serious hit to their AC and some wizards as well. It enables the lightly armoured cleric and invoker. Warlocks might need heavy armour.

Anything else?

'A defender class takes a serious hit to their AC' is actually a horrendous change right there. That's a MAJOR nerf.

 

[Obryn]

'A defender class takes a serious hit to their AC' is actually a horrendous change right there. That's a MAJOR nerf.

Well, the swordmage is solvable. Give them something like, "A swordmage uses their Intelligence instead of their Dexterity in Light Armor."

I still don't like the implications for Wizards - I don't think Wizards deserve this sort of flaw, when other Controllers don't. But if your main purpose is "Give Wizards a lower AC," I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Oldtimer - part of the disconnect may be that a 3-point difference, while negligible in 3.x due to the way attack bonuses scaled and AC didn't, is fairly substantial in 4e. It represents a Wizard getting hit 30% more often than a character with on-par AC. A 24 vs a 27 is substantial. A 24 vs a 29 is even moreso.

-O

 

[keterys]

Frankly, at that point I'd start wondering if you should just rehash the whole defense system - at least with regards to AC.

So maybe heavy armor changes to scale like light armor (no doubling of enhancement value, drop about 4 points from its bonus) but is based on Str or Con instead. Maybe a hallmark of divine classes is they can add their Wis to AC in either type, maybe Primal classes add their Con, Arcane Int... though I'm sure that causes other ripple problems, somehow, maybe. Interesting at least

Pretty far afield of the original question, but if you're going hypothetical, there are interesting places to go. I probably wouldn't bother just swapping Wis/Int and moving on, though.

 

[Oldtimer]

Well, the swordmage is solvable. Give them something like, "A swordmage uses their Intelligence instead of their Dexterity in Light Armor."

Exactly, the game is already full of class exceptions when calculating AC. I'm trying to figure out where I need to put in new exceptions and which should be changed or removed.

I still don't like the implications for Wizards - I don't think Wizards deserve this sort of flaw, when other Controllers don't. But if your main purpose is "Give Wizards a lower AC," I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Oldtimer - part of the disconnect may be that a 3-point difference, while negligible in 3.x due to the way attack bonuses scaled and AC didn't, is fairly substantial in 4e. It represents a Wizard getting hit 30% more often than a character with on-par AC. A 24 vs a 27 is substantial. A 24 vs a 29 is even moreso.

-O

The main purpose is certainly not to "give wizards a lower AC". I do realise that a 3-point difference is serious business in 4e. At this stage I'm just making a note of that. When I see all the consequences, I'll decide whether it's worth the effort to make the change and try to re-balance the game again.

That said, I still think that a little bit of that "defend the wizard" from older editions would be welcome. I feel that a wizard shouldn't have the same (or better) AC as a melee class.

[MENTION=43019]keterys[/MENTION]: Yes, I might end up looking at wider changes. Or no changes at all.

 

[DracoSuave]

That said, I still think that a little bit of that "defend the wizard" from older editions would be welcome. I feel that a wizard shouldn't have the same (or better) AC as a melee class.

But they already are squishy. They have the lowest hit points in the game, which means that healing surges and surge-based healing is the least effective on them. Monster attacks are already MOST effective on wizards (and other controllers.)

There's other factors at work in 4e than 'AC' or even defenses. Defenders do want to take hits on behalf of controllers.

 

[Obryn]

The main purpose is certainly not to "give wizards a lower AC".

Well, it would give the following classes much worse AC... Not just INT-primary, but all the INT-secondary ones...

Druid - Predators
Psions - Telepaths, Shapers
Binders - Star
Wizards/Mages - Non-Wis-Secondary
Swordmages
Artificers - Con-based
Bards - Int-based
Shamans - Int-based
Avengers - Int-based
Rangers - 2WF from the PHB
Warlock - Star
Hexblade - Star
Warlocks - Star, Hexblade Star

...which is a big list

-O