Intelligent Weapons Vs. DR

the Jester said:
Are you sure? Where does it state this? I haven't seen this in the rules anywhere, but it's true that all creatures with an alignment subtype penetrate DR based on that subtype, but I don't think what you're suggesting is spelled out anywhere.
Something doesn't have to be a stated rule to be true. The PC classes themselves show this to be true. So, as far as I can recall, do the monsters in the monster manual.
 

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the Jester said:
Are you sure? Where does it state this?

You do need the subtype to penetrate alignment DR. From the SRD Types, Subtypes & Special Abilities, under "Damage Reduction":

Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.
 
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hong said:
An intelligent sword is still an object, not a creature, so the MM quote about "creatures with alignment" doesn't apply. It would not beat DR.

Firstly, "Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs."

But secondly, I'm not suggesting that the weapon acts like a creature.

I'm saying that the reason a creature with the [Evil] subtype can bypass DR X/Evil is because his weapons act as if they were 'weapons with an alignment that matches'.

Note, not 'weapons with a subtype'. 'Weapons with an alignment'.

'Weapons with an alignment' can overcome Aligned DR.

And all intelligent weapons have an alignment.

A monk has an alignment; his unarmed strike does not, until he either has a subtype, or gets some Ki Strike powers. His weapons and natural weapons do not have an alignment, therefore they do not overcome Aligned DR.

A fighter wielding a Neutral Evil intelligent longsword, on the other hand, is wielding a weapon that has an alignment that matches the [Evil] subtype. Per the description of DR, a weapon that has an alignment that matches the [Evil] subtype can overcome DR X/Evil.

-Hyp.
 

From the description of Damage Reduction:

"Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well."

From the description of the Align Weapon spell:

"Align weapon makes a weapon good, evil, lawful, or chaotic, as you choose. A weapon that is aligned can bypass the damage reduction of certain creatures. This spell has no effect on a weapon that already has an alignment.
You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike."

Based on this, it seems pretty obvious that an intelligent weapon would overcome the relevant damage reduction based on alignment, because intelligent weapons are always aligned.
 


Well, this is an old thread, but I disagree. I've always seen an intelligent item as a construct -- it's a creature, not an object. As a creature, it may have an alignment, but it would need to have an alignment subtype to overcome DR/good or whatever. The intelligent LN sword can't overcome DR/lawful by hitting a creature with it anymore than a LN fighter could with his punch.

I can see why the wording choices, such as naming the spell "align weapon" make it confusing, just as how a full round action is actually quicker than an action that takes 1 round, but I don't think allowing intelligent weapons to count as aligned matches RAW or intent.
 

From the Magic Items section of the DMG:
"Any item with intelligence has an alignment."

From the Monster Manual:
"A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature."

So, if a creature with the Evil subtype overcomes DR X/Evil as if his weapons had an alignment that match 'Evil'...

... and if we accept that his weapons will, in fact, overcome DR X/Evil...

... then a weapon with an alignment that matches 'Evil' will overcome DR X/Evil.

And an intelligent item has an alignment.

So if that alignment matches 'Evil', it could be argued that it will beat DR X/Evil... even if it's not, in fact, an Unholy weapon.

(I'm saying it could be. Not necessarily that I'd use that argument myself ;) )

-Hyp.

IMO you have reached a flawed conclusion by ignoring "A creature with an alignment subtype".

No, merely having an alignment does not bypass DR. Now, if the sword somehow had the subtype, then yes.
 

I don't think you are correct here. You have made some leaps of logic that aren't justified, which is resulting in flawed conclusion.


Firstly, "Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs."

But secondly, I'm not suggesting that the weapon acts like a creature.

I'm saying that the reason a creature with the [Evil] subtype can bypass DR X/Evil is because his weapons act as if they were 'weapons with an alignment that matches'.

Note, not 'weapons with a subtype'. 'Weapons with an alignment'.

This is the first part of your logic flaw. First, alignment and alignment subtype are not the same. They aren't even directly related in fact. For example, a creature can be lawful good with the [Evil] subtype. So you can't interchange their use at will. Second, you took the quote out of context. What it actually says is:

SRD said:
A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

So it's not because of alignment that the ability to bypass DR occurs. It's due to the fact that the appropriate subtype applies.

'Weapons with an alignment' can overcome Aligned DR.

No they can't. Alignment and an alignment subtype are not the same thing. An intelligent weapon would need to have the appropriate alignment subtype in order to bypass DR.

And all intelligent weapons have an alignment.

Correct, but this fact bears no relevance on alignment subtypes.

SRD said:
A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

This makes it pretty clear that alignment and alignment subtypes are wholly independent of each other.

A monk has an alignment; his unarmed strike does not, until he either has a subtype, or gets some Ki Strike powers. His weapons and natural weapons do not have an alignment, therefore they do not overcome Aligned DR.

Not sure what your point here was...

A fighter wielding a Neutral Evil intelligent longsword, on the other hand, is wielding a weapon that has an alignment that matches the [Evil] subtype. Per the description of DR, a weapon that has an alignment that matches the [Evil] subtype can overcome DR X/Evil.

-Hyp.

Again, this is where you are executing a logic flaw. You are stating that the sword has an alignment, then jumping to the conclusion that since it has an alignment it is suddenly the subtype [Evil]. That's simply not correct. The correct last sentence is actually:

Per the description of DR, a weapon that has an alignment subtype can overcome the appropriate DR X/alignment.
 

Prospero - your first logical flaw is assuming that Hyp was equating Alignment and Alignment Subtype with regards to all weapons in general bypassing DR when wielded by a creature with an Alignment Subtype. He was not, and specified as such.
Your second flaw in your logic is that you equated Alignment and Alignment Subtype with regards to manufactured weapons bypassing DR - no matter who or what was wielding them.

A manufactured weapon that has an ALIGNMENT, not an alignment subtype, bypasses DR irrespective of the status of alignment subtypes or lack thereof of the wielder.
A creature with an Alignment Subtype always bypasses the relevant DR, no matter what it is using.
There is a significant difference that you are not making the distinction on.
Technically speaking - a Creature with two alignment subtypes, one on each axis, and wielding a weapon of the opposing alignments would bypass all alignment based DRs. It would, in all probability, however, take 2 negative levels for doing that, though.
 
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javcs said:
Prospero - your first logical flaw is assuming that Hyp was equating Alignment and Alignment Subtype with regards to all weapons in general bypassing DR when wielded by a creature with an Alignment Subtype. He was not, and specified as such.

Er, no I didn't assume that. He pretty clearly interchanged alignment and alignment subtype throughout his examples. He started with a subtype and the fact that it bypasses DR, then switched to just regular old alignment while trying to keep the DR bypass. Essentially it's a bait and switch argument. Mind you, I'm not attacking him for it, it's a common mistake that people make when trying to determine the rules, I mean I've been guilty of it myself.

Your second flaw in your logic is that you equated Alignment and Alignment Subtype with regards to manufactured weapons bypassing DR - no matter who or what was wielding them.

What other kinds of weapons are there (not that I'm sure it matters to the question at hand)? And no, I didn't assume anything about who or what was wielding them. I didn't include the wielder in any fashion because it's irrelevant to the question of intelligent weapons bypassing DR.

A manufactured weapon that has an ALIGNMENT, not an alignment subtype, bypasses DR irrespective of the status of alignment subtypes or lack thereof of the wielder.

And you come to this conclusion how exactly?

A creature with an Alignment Subtype always bypasses the relevant DR, no matter what it is using.

Correct, but that has nothing to do with intelligent weapons being able to bypass DR in and of themselves.

There is a significant difference that you are not making the distinction on.

Difference between what?

Technically speaking - a Creature with two alignment subtypes, one on each axis, and wielding a weapon of the opposing alignments would bypass all alignment based DRs. It would, in all probability, however, take 2 negative levels for doing that, though.

Incorrect. Alignment in and of itself doesn't bypass DR. It's the alignment subtype that does that, or the application of certain spells/effects that "align" a weapon accordingly (no, align weapon and alignment are not the same thing). I quoted the RAW in my previous post, so I'm not going to do it again.
 
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