Introductory Roleplaying Products

[JLant]

Hi Folks,

I've got a couple of young (ages 8 & 12) trainees in my house and have been diligently working to get them into the hobby with decent success so far. We actually started with the Sunless Citadel a couple of years ago but that petered out due to RL getting in the way. When the new Red Box came out I snapped it up and immediately ran them (and their long suffering mother) through character creation and about halfway through the introductory adventure. Along the way, one of the older kid's friends joined us and he showed moderate interest. Again RL intervened and the game got shelved for a couple of weeks. The next time the other kid came by but this time wanted a more "finishable" experience so I got Talisman out (FFG, 4th Ed revised). The whole crew *loved* it. Not only that, but the friend immediately purchased the game and taught his family to play (apparently his mom is deadly with the assassin). He subsequently bought the reaper and Highlands expansion which he and my son are messing with as I type this. Mind you this wins out over Halo Reach and Modern Warfare for a good half the time the boys spend together.

Now my kids are seriously enjoying the RP thing (I backed it off a bit to the new Gamma World which strips the mechanics down a bit more than Essentials) *but* they've got me constantly reinforcing RPGs. My son tried to get his freind into GW but there were too many rules to go through and the friend lost interest.

So to (finally) get to the point: in my experience, the Red Box and Gamma World, despite their relative simplicity, are still not engaging enough to get newbies into the hobby in this day and age where the "competition" includes:

1. FPS (w/ or w/o PvP) like Halo and Close Combat
2. MMORGs like WoW and CoH
3. Handhelds like the DS and iPod Touch/iPhone

Nevertheless, Talisman was able to effectively compete (even more of my son's classmates have picked this game up). Why? Some things I can think of:

1. It is pretty (nice, high quality board and unpainted but nicely sculpted minis).
2. It is fairly contained (the rules are pretty short and the options are on each discrete character card)
3. There is a clear winner in the end.
4. It is finite - usually a "base" game finishes within two hours.

What do the rest of you think? Also, it seems MtG is also able to effectively compete in the "modern" world. How can the features of these successful systems be incorprated into an introductory RPG product that ultimately will bridge those new to the hobby into more complex systems like M&M, D&D, Pathfinder, SW, Dark Heresy, Eclipse Phase and all the other great stuff out there?

Jim

 

[Stormonu]

I don't think its a problem of board game vs. RPG. I'll bet its a case of the RPG you've chosen not clicking with their desires.

If you're looking to get them into a lite RPG, I'd try Savage Worlds. My 9-year-old and 7-year-old are able to comprehend the game well enough that they love to play it when I have the time to run it.

I've personally tried 4E with them, but there just seems to be too much going on with PCs for them to be effective on their own; I had to prompt them on what their character could do; with Savage Worlds, they were jumping in with all kinds of crazy stunts and it was very easy to just say "OK" and tell them what dice they needed to roll to make it work.

 

[JLant]

Hi Stormonu,

I agree that SW is an excellent "Rules-Lite" system, but I think it is still too abstract and "chunky" for newbies today. The quickstart rules do get the beginner started faster than any other system I've seen, but there is still the need for a Game Master to adjudicate and create the adventures. For many of the kids I've seen, the need to learn the rules well enough to GM and create adventures presents a pretty steep barrier. The nice thing about a board game is that not only are the rules compact, but there is no need to come up with an adventure. The downside is that they don't really teach anyone to GM and their scope is limited to one arc. Sometime back, WOTC's AH division put out a game called Betrayal at House on the Hill which sounded like a good bridge system, albeit minus the GM "training" bit. I wonder if there would be a way to start at something like Talisman, progress to Betrayal and then a game (an analog doesn't exist AFAIK) with a GM "training/familiarization" component finally arriving at a true RPG setup. I do think the pathway would require a lot of eye candy along the way.

Jim

 

[nedjer]

Hi Stormonu,

I agree that SW is an excellent "Rules-Lite" system, but I think it is still too abstract and "chunky" for newbies today. The quickstart rules do get the beginner started faster than any other system I've seen, but there is still the need for a Game Master to adjudicate and create the adventures. For many of the kids I've seen, the need to learn the rules well enough to GM and create adventures presents a pretty steep barrier. The nice thing about a board game is that not only are the rules compact, but there is no need to come up with an adventure. The downside is that they don't really teach anyone to GM and their scope is limited to one arc. Sometime back, WOTC's AH division put out a game called Betrayal at House on the Hill which sounded like a good bridge system, albeit minus the GM "training" bit. I wonder if there would be a way to start at something like Talisman, progress to Betrayal and then a game (an analog doesn't exist AFAIK) with a GM "training/familiarization" component finally arriving at a true RPG setup. I do think the pathway would require a lot of eye candy along the way.

Jim

The system you describe :

play it as a boardgame and then open it up to full-blown scenarios
5 minute basic PC Gen and a simple single mechanic
solo, team and GM options for running play
rapid scenario/ adventure layout
edit and print only what you want/ need
hundreds of player-editable graphics optionally represent all actions and items

is covered by Treasure.

. . . the progression's along the lines of Talisman to Sorceror's Cave to Basic D&D/ Traveler . . . and it clearly 'scaffolds' running games, designing scenarios and designing settings.

 

[thejc]

Recently went through the same thing with my son he's nine. Over xmas I passed my comic collection on to him. He really liked it. I took some time off between holiday there and we were bored and I asked if he wanted to play Super heros. We started at MnM. He about died in character creation. I broke out Marvel Super Heros RPG. Much easier(although I had to Mod the heck out of combat and just make part of it up as I went)


Interesting idea, and not bad market wise either.

 

[JLant]

Hi Nedjer-

I was not aware of Treasure; just downloaded the files and will have some reading to do. Thanks! I wonder if they will eventually go commercial.

-Jim

 

[JLant]

Hi Thecj-

Heh, I also tried MnM with a similar outcome. For super heroes, character creation is pretty fun with Icons (Fate based); the kids and I have made a lot of characters but I haven't run anything with it yet. Santa brought is along with WFRP 3e so we'll see.

For games with complex character generation, my "recruits" have found character builders such as the CCB (D&D 4E) and Herolab (PFRPG/SW) to be a lot of fun. Both are pretty easy to use.

-Jim

 

[nedjer]

Hi Nedjer-

I was not aware of Treasure; just downloaded the files and will have some reading to do. Thanks! I wonder if they will eventually go commercial.

-Jim

My understanding is that the core game remains free and CC - in part as a reference point. However, the owners have some commercial stuff on the go.

Through Thistle Games a set of generic and Treasure usable packs are at various stages of development. I've seen large sections of a 'world builder', a scenarios pack that's being reworked for generic use and a media pack with new design templates, ready-to-go layouts and web themes.

Otherwise, anyone who wants a commercial license to use the images and/ or the content for Treasure and non-Treasure purposes - without tiresome Open Content restrictions - simply sorts it out with Thistle Games.

For example, if someone wanted to sell a 'Dark' hardcopy version they could use the .doc to theme, add a few dark honours, change a couple of races, paste in artwork and then burn a PDF for POD services or whatever. Not a lot of work - though a bit previous for a 12-year-old.

 

[kitsune9]

Games like Heroquest from Milton Bradley and Advanced Heroquest from Gameworkshop work in the area that you describe because you have a board game with a lot of roleplaying elements. Each scenario is a fixed win/lose situation.

I think more a more modern game is Descent: Journeys into the Dark, but I don't know enough about this game to determine just how complex it is. I do remember Heroquest being very simple to play.

 

[nedjer]

Love Descent as a boardgame and it covers lots of RPG basics. Just a bit long and mild crunchy for some beginners. But I'm fortunate to have other great RPG primer boardgames in Judge Dread, Warlock of Firetop Mountain, Talisman and, remarkably, Zooloretto, because it's such a hook for casual gamers. Would try out Ravenloft for the same purpose, but last I saw it cost the best part of an arm and a leg.

Anyone got more good 1-3 hour intro boardgames they rate real highly?