Invigorating Assault: Can my party always start the fight with temp hp?

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think you're thinking too hard about it. Resting absolutely is a party function. Any group of one or more individual PCs who are operating together as a group IS a party. When the party rests, the members of the party rest. Its that simple. They kick back, relax, check around the area they're in, fiddle with loot to see if its magic, drink some potions, etc. If one PC wants to do jumping jacks, that's fine, he's still resting. If there's a specific effect on someone that says that they can't rest, well then they don't get the benefit of resting (or to be fair the penalties either). Fine, no problems. Nobody gets to game the system, no house rules are required, the game simply works as intended.

Of course there are some points where things weren't thought through 100% perfectly and players can technically do some oddball things. Some of those are OK and just come down to cleverness by the players, but others really aren't all that cool.

I think you have to look at the whole thing from the standpoint of what makes sense. The game is supposed to be about envisioning yourselves as adventurers, not nitpicking rules. When things like this come up, the question should be "how would it make sense to narrate this?" not "It says on PHB 287 paragraph 3 subpoint J of title 6..." When players start quoting rules at my table like that, they get short shrift.

 

[Turtlejay]

I think you're thinking too hard about it. Resting absolutely is a party function. Any group of one or more individual PCs who are operating together as a group IS a party. When the party rests, the members of the party rest. Its that simple. They kick back, relax, check around the area they're in, fiddle with loot to see if its magic, drink some potions, etc. If one PC wants to do jumping jacks, that's fine, he's still resting. If there's a specific effect on someone that says that they can't rest, well then they don't get the benefit of resting (or to be fair the penalties either). Fine, no problems. Nobody gets to game the system, no house rules are required, the game simply works as intended.

Of course there are some points where things weren't thought through 100% perfectly and players can technically do some oddball things. Some of those are OK and just come down to cleverness by the players, but others really aren't all that cool.

I think you have to look at the whole thing from the standpoint of what makes sense. The game is supposed to be about envisioning yourselves as adventurers, not nitpicking rules. When things like this come up, the question should be "how would it make sense to narrate this?" not "It says on PHB 287 paragraph 3 subpoint J of title 6..." When players start quoting rules at my table like that, they get short shrift.

I support this message, and all it stands for.

Jay

 

[Mengu]

I think you're thinking too hard about it. Resting absolutely is a party function. Any group of one or more individual PCs who are operating together as a group IS a party. When the party rests, the members of the party rest. Its that simple. They kick back, relax, check around the area they're in, fiddle with loot to see if its magic, drink some potions, etc. If one PC wants to do jumping jacks, that's fine, he's still resting. If there's a specific effect on someone that says that they can't rest, well then they don't get the benefit of resting (or to be fair the penalties either). Fine, no problems. Nobody gets to game the system, no house rules are required, the game simply works as intended.

So if the party is taking a rest, while the wizard is performing a ritual and the warlock is helping him, are the wizard and warlock really resting? Or are you going to rule the other characters can't take a rest because the wizard and warlock are performing a ritual? Neither solution presents itself as a good one. Or the party is stuck behind a wall of ice and wants to take a rest, but the wizard doesn't need one, he only used 1 encounter power and is fine continuing without it, so he starts blasting away at the ice with scorching burst while everyone else is resting. Did that wizard really rest? Or did his blasts prevent the party from resting?

I think each character has to be treated separately for short, or even extended rests. I've had people say, I'm going to stay up all night, and help heal the sick people. Don't care if I don't get back dailies or surges. So, that person doesn't get an extended rest. I've even had party members on different milestones during a day. The party was attacked toward the end of their extended rest, when 2 of 6 characters had gotten full rests, but 4 had not. The 2 that had gotten their full rest, got their 1st encounter toward a milestone, but the other 4 had their milestones reset at the end of their extended rest, so the rest of the day, the members of the party were reaching milestones in a staggered fashion.

I don't think "party" is a game keyword, so enforcing any "party" rule would merely be a house rule.

 

[Turtlejay]

That is why we have DM's. If the party is resting, and one person is not because he is doing <fill in the blank>, is he trying to game the system, or roleplaying? Just like you should not allow someone to roll a d20 that has every side labeled "20", you should not let someone try to get past the intent of a rule by acting foolish.

In your examples, you called it right. The party members otherwise engaged do not necissarily get the benefit. If you were in a situation where time was important, this would matter. I think *most* of the time, this is not the case. The party takes a breather, cleans the blood off and lets the edge come off the adrenaline rush, and moves on. There is no time constraint. There is no reason why after the wizard finishes his ritual he can't also take a rest.

The root of this is the Temp HP problem. If, through some means, a party member has obtained some Temp HP, can he avoid resting while the rest of the party rests to keep his Temp HP? No. He can't. Temp HP, like Sbort Rest, is a clumsy game term trying to emulate a real or fantasy world concept. In this case, the invigorating or uplifting presence of a charismatic leader would work, bouying your spirits and allowing you to shake off dread and pain. When that leader finishes butchering orcs and walks to the edge of the clearing to pee in the bushes, the link is gone. The danger is over, the bouying effect is broken.

Modeled loosely by game terms, while you are active and adventuring, the Temp HP is there. Once you stop to break, for any reason, it's lost. I don't have a problem with the current duration of Temp HP, as long as the resting thing is not munchkined in.

Jay

 

[eamon]

That is why we have DM's. If the party is resting, and one person is not because he is doing <fill in the blank>, is he trying to game the system, or roleplaying? Just like you should not allow someone to roll a d20 that has every side labeled "20", you should not let someone try to get past the intent of a rule by acting foolish.

Agreed.

The root of this is the Temp HP problem. If, through some means, a party member has obtained some Temp HP, can he avoid resting while the rest of the party rests to keep his Temp HP? No. He can't. Temp HP, like Sbort Rest, is a clumsy game term trying to emulate a real or fantasy world concept. In this case, the invigorating or uplifting presence of a charismatic leader would work, bouying your spirits and allowing you to shake off dread and pain. When that leader finishes butchering orcs and walks to the edge of the clearing to pee in the bushes, the link is gone. The danger is over, the bouying effect is broken.

This, I have a problem with. See, your description suggests that temporary hitpoints should last as long as the encounter. At the end of the encounter, they disappear. That's indeed my proposed house rule intended to fix rule and expectation mixmatch.

But that's not when temporary hit points end as currently written. They do not end at the end of the encounter, they end when you take the time to rest - to intentionally relax and refocus. This resting is presumably voluntary just as sleeping is - sure, you may need to rest sometime, but you can choose when. There is a distinction between "until the end of the encounter" and "until the next rest".

Now, I'm fine with a DM saying that temp hp only last until the end of the encounter. I'm not fine with a DM dictating when and where a PC rests, however. It is a perfectly reasonable concept for a PC to buff his allies with effects and perfectly reasonable for PC's to choose when and where to rest strategically; this matters and makes sense in game. A buff may be costly and it may be worth spending some time and forfeiting a short rest to maintain the buff. It may also happen that temporary hitpoints, as the name already suggests, are not such a buff - they just last for a short time, until the end of the encounter.

 

[Turtlejay]

Well, since most PC's do take a short rest after every encounter, this is not a huge problem. And if they are mandated to keep going, by plot or other legitimate means, then they are not getting other bonuses like spending surges to heal up or recharging encounter powers. In that case, they would be entitled to the THP, as the PC's keep up the frenetic pace of combat and push on without a rest.

Jay

 

[DracoSuave]

Well...

IF they got through an encounter, and
IF they managed to get temporary hitpoints and not lose them, and
IF they managed to not burn through their encounter powers

THEN

The previous encounter probably wasn't much of a challenge.

If the encounter was even a smidge of a challenge, they'd have probably used their encounter powers, attacks or utilities.

Their encounter powers, even one, is probably more valuable than a handful of temporary HP.

Giving up a valuable asset for a less valuable asset isn't "broken" by any means, so the Temp HP "problem" is not actually a "problem."

 

[eamon]

Well...

IF they got through an encounter, and
IF they managed to get temporary hitpoints and not lose them, and
IF they managed to not burn through their encounter powers

THEN

The previous encounter probably wasn't much of a challenge.

If the encounter was even a smidge of a challenge, they'd have probably used their encounter powers, attacks or utilities.

Their encounter powers, even one, is probably more valuable than a handful of temporary HP.

Giving up a valuable asset for a less valuable asset isn't "broken" by any means, so the Temp HP "problem" is not actually a "problem."

You can use encounter powers outside of a combat encounter.