D&D 5E (2014) Invisibility and Perception

[jayoungr]

Greater Invisibility is amazing on a rogue. They can attack with backstab, move away without an OA, and hide as their bonus action.

I can see how that would be nice. How useful is it to someone who can't hide as a bonus action, though?

 

[Kalshane]

I can see how that would be nice. How useful is it to someone who can't hide as a bonus action, though?

(Provided your opponent can't see invisible creatures) you don't provoke OAs, anyone that tries to attack you has disadvantage, any spell that requires the caster to see the target doesn't function, and you have advantage on all attack rolls.

Seems pretty nice to me.

 

[jayoungr]

Okay, so in continuing to figure out how these rules interact, I re-read the section on Stealth.

You make a Stealth check to hide, which costs an action.

But you also make a Stealth check to sneak past some guards, which can be done on your move.

So it strikes me as reasonable to say that a creature who has just gone invisible should be able to make a Stealth check to attempt to move somewhere quietly so that others in the area don't know where it ends up. The DC would be either the highest Passive Perception of the others (if they're not actively tracking it) or the highest Perception roll of anyone who is tracking it.

Agree/disagree?

This is, of course, a consequence of folding both move silently and hide into one skill. And I'm okay with the folding, just trying to figure out how the new version works best.

If you take the hide action while invisible, what are you actually doing in-game, and how does it differ from a normal stealth check?

 

[iserith]

Okay, so in continuing to figure out how these rules interact, I re-read the section on Stealth.

You make a Stealth check to hide, which costs an action.

But you also make a Stealth check to sneak past some guards, which can be done on your move.

So it strikes me as reasonable to say that a creature who has just gone invisible should be able to make a Stealth check to attempt to move somewhere quietly so that others in the area don't know where it ends up. The DC would be either the highest Passive Perception of the others (if they're not actively tracking it) or the highest Perception roll of anyone who is tracking it.

Agree/disagree?

I think the two examples you cite from the books are different in that the former takes place in combat and the latter does not. Hiding in combat has an action cost associated with it which represents an exception to the general rule of taking a fictional action to be stealthy and resolving the uncertain outcome with an ability check without an action cost.

"In certain situations, particularly combat, the action is more structured and the players (and DM) do take turns choosing and resolving actions. But most of the time, play is fluid and flexible, adapting to the circumstances of the adventure."

That's my interpretation anyway and is not an effort at saying your interpretation is unreasonable. I just happen to think that invisibility does grant a significant advantage - disadvantage to attack rolls against you among other things - and that the additional benefit of potentially not being targeted at all requires additional effort. In combat, the fictional action to do so costs a mechanical action.

 

[epithet]

Okay, so in continuing to figure out how these rules interact, I re-read the section on Stealth.

You make a Stealth check to hide, which costs an action.

But you also make a Stealth check to sneak past some guards, which can be done on your move.

So it strikes me as reasonable to say that a creature who has just gone invisible should be able to make a Stealth check to attempt to move somewhere quietly so that others in the area don't know where it ends up. The DC would be either the highest Passive Perception of the others (if they're not actively tracking it) or the highest Perception roll of anyone who is tracking it.

Agree/disagree?

This is, of course, a consequence of folding both move silently and hide into one skill. And I'm okay with the folding, just trying to figure out how the new version works best.

If you take the hide action while invisible, what are you actually doing in-game, and how does it differ from a normal stealth check?

I agree with your interpretation. I think most of the time a "hide action" involves making sure you're not seen--the description of stealth really focuses on the visual element. You have to be concealed to hide, special abilities allow you to hide if an enemy's sight of you is partially obscured, etc., but nowhere does it say you can't hide wearing tap dancing shoes. Even heavy armor just gives you disadvantage, and that's probably as much for its bulk and conspicuous nature as it is for the clanking sound you make when you try to walk in it.

Invisibility, by its very nature, handles the largest part of a "hide action." What's left shouldn't require an action, so if a character cast invisibility on himself and then moved, I would definitely have him make a dex(stealth) check as part of that movement. To do otherwise serves rule mechanics at the expense of the narrative, which is a sin in my book.

 

[jayoungr]

Re-reading the rules again, I can definitely see the "hiding takes an action" argument per RAW. But at the same time, if I say that you can't hide in combat without spending an action, then I am also saying there is no possible way to move without everyone in the room tracking you precisely during the six seconds after you go invisible--yet it is possible after that. I just can't see a way to square that idea with the fiction of what's happening in-game.

I suspect the hide rules were written with the scenario of a non-invisible creature in mind, and that's what makes them interact oddly with the invisibility rules.

I think what I'll do in this case is sit down with my players, list the possible ways of handling it, and ask which version they'd rather go with at our table, with the understanding that whichever we choose will apply to PCs and NPCs alike.

 

[iserith]

Re-reading the rules again, I can definitely see the "hiding takes an action" argument per RAW. But at the same time, if I say that you can't hide in combat without spending an action, then I am also saying there is no possible way to move without everyone in the room tracking you precisely during the six seconds after you go invisible--yet it is possible after that. I just can't see a way to square that idea with the fiction of what's happening in-game.

Here's a way to square it: They can track you precisely because you are making no special effort to hide while moving. In order to have a chance of successfully hiding from your opponents in combat, a special effort must be undertaken (whatever that may be in the fiction) and this requires an action.

Invisible isn't hidden, but it's not nothing - there are some significant benefits even when not hidden. To gain the additional benefit of hidden in my view, you have to do something (which costs an action).

 

[jayoungr]

Here's a way to square it: They can track you precisely because you are making no special effort to hide while moving.

But then I have to say there is no way to make that effort even if you want to. And even quietly standing still won't help you.

 

[iserith]

But then I have to say there is no way to make that effort even if you want to. And even quietly standing still won't help you.

You don't have to say anything like that if you don't want to - you're the DM. But as far as squaring things goes: You can absolutely make an effort e.g. tiptoeing away after casting the spell or standing stock still. But, in combat, that approach fails to achieve the goal of becoming hidden from enemies (no check at all) unless you make a special effort that requires an action.

 

[epithet]

You don't have to say anything like that if you don't want to - you're the DM. But as far as squaring things goes: You can absolutely make an effort e.g. tiptoeing away after casting the spell or standing stock still. But, in combat, that approach fails to achieve the goal of becoming hidden from enemies (no check at all) unless you make a special effort that requires an action.

I don't agree.

Once you've taken the "hide action" you can maintain your stealthiness by moving at no more than half your speed. That is, for lack of a better term, sneaking. You can continue to make your stealth rolls as you sneak around at half speed without having to take another "hide action" until you are discovered.

I think that an invisible character should absolutely be able to sneak. If the character uses its full movement, then sure--it is making no effort, or no meaningful effort--to be stealthy. If it uses no more than half of its movement and the player expresses an intent to tiptoe quietly, then it is entirely reasonable to let that character make a stealth check as he sneaks across the room.