Invisible Paladin

[SableWyvern]

Now that the paladin is invisible, he could, in theory at least, be anywhere. While it is likely that he isn't too far away from the last square he occupied while he was still visible, it is not impossible that he may have somehow moved near/adjacent to a PC I happen to want to attack. While you can certainly suspect that such an event is highly unlikely, you cannot dismiss it as utterly impossible, because by definition, you cannot see him, and thus cannot possibly know whether you have managed to attack him or not with your area attack until it has actually been made.

So, going by the spirit of the rule in this case, it's simple to rule that your best guess has to in fact be a best guess made in good faith, not a "most suitable for me so I'll pretend like I think that's where he is guess." The divine magic knows if you really think your taking your best possible shot, and can't be tricked by a rules-lawyer. Exclaim, "He could have been there!" all you want -- if you know it's more likely he's actually over there, then the magic knows you knew.

I don't see where I am ignoring the literal rules.

You're ignoring them as soon as you present a situation where it's possible to take a best guess as to where an invisible challenger is and take a shot at them, without automatically taking divine challenge damage.

Claiming that my explanation is wrong because it appears overpowered...

I don't know if you're still addressing me, but ... I never made any such claim. Not even remotely. My problem with your explanation is that I think it's silly. It may, in fact, be RAW, RAI and the very will of the gods. I still think it's silly.

Edit for clarity: And I should also point out, since you've moved on to discussing paladins marking and retreating or attacking from range: the only thing I've been talking about in this thread is Divine Challenge and Invisible Paladins.

 

[Ander00]

If my epic level character for that one campaign wasn't set already, I'd now want to play a completely mad halfling paladin multiclassed to fey pact warlock, using things like Eyebite, Mire the Mind and Raven's Glamor to fool an enemy into taking damage from his Divine Challenge.
He'd be a bit lacking in encounter powers, but at least there are a fair number of ranged daily powers.

Of course, he might call his Divine Challenge by a different name. Like say, Warlock's Curse.


cheers

 

[ki11erDM]

No, the point of that is to explain why a beetle would accept a divine challenge. It doesn't confer any special ability beyond understanding the nature of the challenge.

No, I am darn sure it says:

Special: Even though this ability is called a challenge, it doesn’t rely on the intelligence or language ability of the target. It’s a magical compulsion that affects the creature’s behavior, regardless of the creature’s nature.

So, to me, that means no matter if the creature has a intelligence of 30 or 1 the creature is magically compelled to attack who affected it. So if it is magically compelled why does it have to be able to see the Pally? DC takes care of all the targeting issues. Now the monster can fight the compulsion and take damage.
It is the simplest solution I have seen on this tread.

 

[Calidarien]

Well, to throw in my two cents, I come down on the "intent" side of the argument (until convinced otherwise, of course). In my view (and my world), the radiant damage is a result of the challenged enemy actively resisting the "magical compulsion". If the challenged enemy is making a good-faith effort to attack the paladin, even if the paladin is actually somewhere completely different, then I think the essence of the challenge is being met, and so no radiant damage.

I agree that RAW likely favors the mechanics of targeting (so blind characters are basically screwed), but such an approach would still need to be explained flavor-wise (unless the players simply don't care). The "intent" approach is certainly more ambiguous from a mechanics point-of-view, and requires DM judgment calls, but I feels like it makes more sense in a "real" world. Admittedly my position may be more or less a house rule, but I feel that Divine Challenge is sufficiently poorly written and debated often enough that perhaps *any* position is technically a house rule. =)

 

[lukelightning]

I just had a thought of the arhetypical ham-fisted raildroader DM who loves to punish errant PCs with the dreaded Paladin Squad (you know, "I intimidate the innkeeper to get a free drink" "ok, but then 4 high level paladins come and smite you for being evil").

Now said railroading DM has a new trick!

Player: "I steal the golden vase instead of returning it to the temple."

DM: "You take 30 points of radiant damage."

Player: "Huh? From what?"

DM: "Six invisible paladins."

 

[Kobu]

So, to me, that means no matter if the creature has a intelligence of 30 or 1 the creature is magically compelled to attack who affected it. So if it is magically compelled why does it have to be able to see the Pally? DC takes care of all the targeting issues. Now the monster can fight the compulsion and take damage.

Why would being compelled make the target know where the paladin is?

This bit--"DC takes care of all the targeting issues"--isn't supported by anything in the description or elsewhere that I have read. Do you have some reference for this?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hyp, I'll second the curiosity about your intent. Are you engaging in a mental exercise...?

Primarily. Divine Challenge is a useful ability for examining the meanings of the words 'attack' and 'target' in the 4E rules.

-Hyp.

 

[Psychic Robot]

I believe intent is key here.

If the Paladin is invisible, and the challenge-ee doesn't know what square he is in, and designates a square he guesses the Paladin is in, he has satisfied the spell's conditions; He has attacked the Paladin.

Whether he hits the Paladin is as irrelevant in this discussion as it would be if our Marked Man could see the Paladin, swung and missed.

It's not important that the Paladin takes damage, but that the marked targets attempts to engage the Paladin.

Agreed.

 

[Skyscraper]

I disagree. This would likely be the case if you lacked the ability to mark, since you would then want to present yourself as a viable threat, comparable to a more fragile target such as the party wizard or rogue, and the 3e fighter's largest shortcoming.

But now that you have caught the foe's attention and know that he now has reason to want to attack you (or risk suffering the penalties from divine challenge), it certainly makes sense to me that now is as good a time as any to make yourself as hard to hit as possible.

I believe there's a stretch between "hard to hit" and "inacessible". I hear the arguments about invisible not being inaccessible, just harder to access. However if the paladin, using an action point, attacked (std), divine challenged (minor), became invisible (action point std) and moved 6 squares (mv), he can be just about anywhere in a 13X13 area which gives the target of divine challenge just about no chance of finding him unless he gets a good roll on his perception check. What's the point here? To play hide and seek? Is that how the divine challenge ability is to be used? I really don't see this in my soup.

For me divine challenge means "hit me and no one else". For that to happen, there needs to be a "me" which is visible and accessible by the target.

I'm firmly in the intent camp.

Sky

 

[Skyscraper]

I'm still waiting for someone to bring up the invisible archer paladin as a strategy (after the invisible paladin and the archer paladin).

Oh wait. Imagine a group of doppleganger archer paladins. They all polymorph into the same person, delay their actions to move and attack at the same time: the target can't recognize who shot him since they all look alike. Add in a warlock multiclass for eyebite so that the one who really shot him is additionally invisible.

Another one: the paladin multiclasses in wizard. He gets the mirror image power. Would attacking his image count as attacking the paladin?

Bah. I still prefer my first idea. The paladin teleports behind a wall next to the target or under the floor under the target, still adjacent to it, after his attack. Simpler.

Players who want to play the paladin class like this need to multiclass as lawyers

Sky