Involuntary movement = AoO?

[kreynolds]

I don't think that's really an issue. I agree that the PHB states that forced movement would generate an AoO (but for some reason all the other rulebooks and SRD have dropped that). The question becomes whether or not being forced back 5ft (with no other movement) is the same as a 5ft adjustment?

Well, that's what I thought, but then it was pointed out that forced movement doesn't count against your movement for the round. That makes more sense to me.

I think not, but others think it is.

One less.

 

[Voadam]

Icebear,

I'm not sure why you think the srd does not support AoOs for involuntary movement.

Here is the whole of the relevant section:

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity by Moving

If a character moves through (not simply into) or out of a threatened area, a character usually provokes an attack of opportunity.

If all a character does during that character's turn is make a normal move or a double move (not a run), the space that the character started out in is not considered threatened.

If a character's entire move for the round is 5 feet the 5 foot move does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

This does not seem limited to voluntary movement. Is there an srd section I'm not looking at for general movement?

 

[IceBear]

Look at the Bull Rush description in the SRD and the one in the PHB. In the Results section of the bull rush in the PHB they explicitly state that this forced movement could cause an AoO. This is so explicitly stated that it's omission in the SRD and the other rulebooks is glaring.

I agree with the sections of the SRD that you posted 100% though. I really don't have an issue with giving a AoO against someone that has been forcible moved, I was suggesting not just to keep things clean and simple. I do have an issue with not allowing an AoO against someone who has been moved only 5ft, because I don't consider that "character's movement" and thus not a 5ft adjustment.

IceBear

 

[Corwin]

Bull Rushing someone also necessarily means that you give up an attack to do so (with the exception of a couple of feats that let you do it as part of an attack). It also gives your opponent an AoO on you most of the time. It also requires that you beat them in an opposed Strength check. Then, if you are sucessful, your allies who threaten the same opponent get to make an AoO (if they haven't already made one previously in the round) and if they hit, the opponent takes some amount of damage that may or may not be greater than what you would have inflicted if you had just hit them in the first place (and if you are going around Bull Rushing folks on a regular basis, you probably have enough Strength to do a fair amount of damage in the first place).

Nothing about that seems unbalanced to me.

This is the point I was trying to make a page ago.

Bull Rush doesn't seem to be the real problem here, for the reasons you just stated.

What does get a bit out of hand are the other maneuvers that force opponents to move. Attacks such as Great Throw, Shield Bash, etc.

In these attacks, the target is taking real damage, ususally being pushed around or knocked over as well, and possibly getting thwacked by a multitude of AoOs. That is a bit much IMO.

I mean, using my monk for an example. I Great Throw opponents all the time. My rogue partner and I have a tactic where he stands two squares behind me. He then holds his action until I Great Throw the baddie over my head and behind me (thus between me and the rogue). My partner then gets flanking sneak attacks on the prone opponent with his full attack action. Pretty sweet all-in-all. But to allow him (and others) to squeeze in an AoO too, is just asking for the DM to kick our proverbial behinds for trying.

 

[IceBear]

But if you look at kreynolds' FAQ posts, it seems like the Sage was saying that if you move with the person AoO are ok, if you do not then no AoO.

IceBear

 

[Stalker0]

I think we all agree here that the rules for AoO due to forced movement is messy.

IceBear [/B]

It seems really clear cut to me. If you get moved by a bullrush you take AOO. Its that simple. Mobility applies, since you are moving, and taking AOO from that move. Personally, I don't give a damn about what the SRD says, for as long as I've been here on the forums it seems to be wrong a lot more than my trusty PH. My book says its provoke AOO, and until I see some statement that says otherwise, I'm going to leave it that way. That's a rant I know, but we change so many things around here due to Sage advice and errata that I think we don't need to start changing something until WOTC actually says to change it.

Whether grappling should automatically provoke AOO or not is another issue altogether. Let's face it, you can't sunder people's weapons that easily, the world is not made of 5 foot squares, and you can't rationalize every combat action in DND except by using the rules we were given. The rules say that movement except the 5-foot STEP provoke AOO (except of course the stated exceptions). There is no 5-foot STEP here, so its an AOO.

And all those tactics that were brought up about bullrush aren't silly, there are excellent strategies and teamwork combat. For instance a rogue darts in on a dragon, tumbling in to avoid AOO and sneak attacks him. The fighter next to him, bull rushes him away (carries him away is a better image) to avoid the dragon's full fury (full attack). Its a great image of a friend saving another friend, taking a claw in the back while doing it (by moving to bullrush someone, you still take an AOO from the dragon in this case).

Or another example, a friend who reacts to danger first pulls his friend with him into the frey. The friend picks up speed and then launches himself at the target.

But anyway, I'm about to launch a thread about that stuff. That's not what we're talking about.

 

[Voadam]

But if you look at kreynolds' FAQ posts, it seems like the Sage was saying that if you move with the person AoO are ok, if you do not then no AoO.

IceBear

I don't know if I have the whole context of the question and answer right, but from what he posted above:

If you and your opponent are moving together, your mutual movement provokes attacks of opportunity from foes who
threaten you, but shifting your opponent from space to space while you stay put does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

I would think the FAQ is saying if you do not move and you knock your opponent around you do not provoke an AoO against yourself because you have not moved. For instance if you did a shield bash. It can be read to not address AoOs upon the involuntarily moved target.

 

[Rel]

Well, Corwin, your point is well taken but this might be somewhat campaign specific.

For example, I am currently playing a Ranger/Cleric who has Improved Shield Bash as a feat (this is one reason why I've taken a long look at the balance issues involved in this discussion). So anytime I shield bash somebody, I start a Bull Rush and we do an opposed Strength check. If I'm successful and another party member is threatening them, they get an AoO.

BUT, our group only has 3 players. Of the other two, one is a Wizard who avoids melee combat at all costs. The other one is a PsyWarrior. So far, our few combats have always been against multiple opponents and it was rare if ever that both the PsyWarrior and my character were threatening the same opponent. I expect this trend is likely to continue for a while.

There will probably come a day however when the Psy Warrior is threatening some baddie and I shield bash that baddie and knock him back 5 feet and the Psy Warrior will get an AoO. But I still say that doesn't seem unbalanced. After all, I had to invest 2 feats to get that capability and it is only useful in that manner under a limited set of curcumstances. I may well have been better off taking Power Attack/Cleave or Dodge/Mobility or any other set of feats that is more frequently useful or reliable.

In short, what I'm getting at is yes, those feats make you better at allowing other party members to occasionally get an extra AoO now and then. But that's what feats do: They make you better at things and provide opportunities to do things you couldn'd do before.

And lastly I'll mention that so far during the campaign I've managed to sucessfully shield bash one time. Against a Dire Rat. Who won the opposed Strength check against me.

But I'm not bitter.

Stupid rat.

(This has mostly to do with the fact that I can't seem to roll above a 6 on my attack rolls. Hopefully my luck will change soon.)

 

[Stalker0]

Actually, writing my other post gave me a perfect example. Under the bullrush rules, you can make a 5 foot MOVE into your opponent space. Not only does this provoke an AOO from him, but also from others AROUND you, just like any other move would do. This shows that all 5 foot moves are not steps, some do provoke AOO.

That alone may not convince all of you, as in that situation you are moving in to bull rush. But also remember that when moving, if I add the tumble condition on to it I no longer provoke AOO for that move. Now if I'm moving, but add the condition that I'm being bull rushed, by my PH rules, I am indeed provoking an AOO.

 

[IceBear]

It seems really clear cut to me. If you get moved by a bullrush you take AOO. Its that simple. Mobility applies, since you are moving, and taking AOO from that move. Personally, I don't give a damn about what the SRD says, for as long as I've been here on the forums it seems to be wrong a lot more than my trusty PH. My book says its provoke AOO, and until I see some statement that says otherwise, I'm going to leave it that way. That's a rant I know, but we change so many things around here due to Sage advice and errata that I think we don't need to start changing something until WOTC actually says to change it.

Whether grappling should automatically provoke AOO or not is another issue altogether. Let's face it, you can't sunder people's weapons that easily, the world is not made of 5 foot squares, and you can't rationalize every combat action in DND except by using the rules we were given. The rules say that movement except the 5-foot STEP provoke AOO (except of course the stated exceptions). There is no 5-foot STEP here, so its an AOO.

And all those tactics that were brought up about bullrush aren't silly, there are excellent strategies and teamwork combat. For instance a rogue darts in on a dragon, tumbling in to avoid AOO and sneak attacks him. The fighter next to him, bull rushes him away (carries him away is a better image) to avoid the dragon's full fury (full attack). Its a great image of a friend saving another friend, taking a claw in the back while doing it (by moving to bullrush someone, you still take an AOO from the dragon in this case).

Or another example, a friend who reacts to danger first pulls his friend with him into the frey. The friend picks up speed and then launches himself at the target.

But anyway, I'm about to launch a thread about that stuff. That's not what we're talking about.

I know, but if things aren't messy you don't get many threads on them like you do with Bull Rush (this has come up several times before). I *personally* don't have a big issue with it. That's all I meant by messy.

IceBear