Involuntary movement = AoO?

[Stalker0]

Well, Corwin, your point is well taken but this might be somewhat campaign specific.

For example, I am currently playing a Ranger/Cleric who has Improved Shield Bash as a feat (this is one reason why I've taken a long look at the balance issues involved in this discussion). So anytime I shield bash somebody, I start a Bull Rush and we do an opposed Strength check. If I'm successful and another party member is threatening them, they get an AoO.

BUT, our group only has 3 players. Of the other two, one is a Wizard who avoids melee combat at all costs. The other one is a PsyWarrior. So far, our few combats have always been against multiple opponents and it was rare if ever that both the PsyWarrior and my character were threatening the same opponent. I expect this trend is likely to continue for a while.

There will probably come a day however when the Psy Warrior is threatening some baddie and I shield bash that baddie and knock him back 5 feet and the Psy Warrior will get an AoO. But I still say that doesn't seem unbalanced. After all, I had to invest 2 feats to get that capability and it is only useful in that manner under a limited set of curcumstances. I may well have been better off taking Power Attack/Cleave or Dodge/Mobility or any other set of feats that is more frequently useful or reliable.

Also considering you could have been doing damage and disarm, shield bashing isn't overpowered.

Also remember that straight up bullrushing is a STANDARD action, not an attack action. So there are very few uses for a normal bullrush in combat

 

[Corwin]

Well, Corwin, your point is well taken but this might be somewhat campaign specific.

But I think it's important to remember that, especially on a forum like this, a rule is either good or bad in general. You can't start singling out campaign specific preferences without having to move it over to the House Rule Forum.

For example, I am currently playing a Ranger/Cleric who has Improved Shield Bash as a feat (this is one reason why I've taken a long look at the balance issues involved in this discussion). So anytime I shield bash somebody, I start a Bull Rush and we do an opposed Strength check. If I'm successful and another party member is threatening them, they get an AoO.

[...Snip...]

There will probably come a day however when the Psy Warrior is threatening some baddie and I shield bash that baddie and knock him back 5 feet and the Psy Warrior will get an AoO. But I still say that doesn't seem unbalanced. After all, I had to invest 2 feats to get that capability and it is only useful in that manner under a limited set of curcumstances. I may well have been better off taking Power Attack/Cleave or Dodge/Mobility or any other set of feats that is more frequently useful or reliable.

What an odd coincidence. In another campaign, I have a paladin with Improved Shield Bash as well (and Shield Expert, Shield Charge, Improved 2-Weapon, Divine Sheild with a +8 Cha bonus, of course ).

Another player is a Psi-Warrior with spiked chain and going the Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, AoO-god route.

One nightmare that is bound to come up eventually is going to be when he starts hanging out next to me and trying to take AoOs on all my Shield Bashed opponents. This is just as bad, IMO, as my monk Great Throwing example.

 

[Rel]

But I think it's important to remember that, especially on a forum like this, a rule is either good or bad in general. You can't start singling out campaign specific preferences without having to move it over to the House Rule Forum.

That's a fair point.

Alright then, I conclude that my version of how I'd handle the issue of Bull Rush causing AoO's is balanced in general. And the Improved Shield Bash feat is also balanced in general, given that interpretation.

 

[Corwin]

Alright then, I conclude that my version of how I'd handle the issue of Bull Rush causing AoO's is balanced in general. And the Improved Shield Bash feat is also balanced in general, given that interpretation.

Fair enough.