(IR) The 5th IR - 3rd OOC Thread (OPEN)

[William Ronald]

(OOC: Edena, I thought the spat was going to come later, so I will reply later. I need to write an adequate response. Eclavdra will hate it. Also, I will have to catch up to the AFTS pact. (Rikandur, my first reaction was what were the people at WotC drinking when they signed off on it. There are EPIC Level spells that do less damage over their area of effect.) I like it, but I have to catch up to Bugbear's character. Let's say that I was inattentive to the end of the post. I was waiting for Venus to respond. However, Al'Akbar is a demigod and very far from perfect. However, I will make up for it. And give everyone an Ekbir link, although it is in French. Living Greyhawk Ekbir site and this is the main Living Greyhawk campaign site. )

First, based on my measurements, a continent opposite the Solnor Ocean from Oerik could be fairly large. I estimated there is something like 5,200 or so miles of land or water not on the inset Oreth map on the LGG map. This is less than the distance of Africa at its widest point. So, there is room for continets roughly the size of Africa and North America. (Oerth is traditionally described as having four continents. Hepmonaland is perhaps 3,000 or more miles long and is not very wide.) The Ana Keris continent, off the southwest coast of the Oerik continent appears comparable in size to the Flanaess.

I tried downloading an old adventure that details part of Aquaria, but it did not work. I sent SV Games an e-mail. So, I will have something soon. One of the links has a timeline of Aquaria, developed by Frank Mentzner. (E. Gary Gygax did say in the past that it was canon.) I think some name changes are needed, especially for one of the rulers. Note that there should be room on an Aquaria style continent for good, neutral ane even evil factions. The modules are set about 30 years before our IR.

Here are some links I found about different versions of the Oerik continent, Oerth, and other places. Do check out the Grodog's Greyhawk pages. There is a section listing places referred to in Greyhawk books or various adventure modules. There is room for lots of concepts. (Some name changes are welcome. Several designers have retroactively apologized for some of the names on the big Oerik continent map. Plus, you can work with themes. Ishtarland could have a Babylonian or Sumerian name. Here are a few: Kalam (literally "the Land" in Sumerian, Kengir, "Land of the Gods", or Ki-Uri, "the Land of Ur.")

I think someone should claim the Olman and Touv of Hepmonaland. I can try to calculate their population and we can work with the numbers. Similarly, if Kalanyr can't have Ye'Cind, I think someone should claim him. He is a demigod with a long history on Oerth. Heck, he may be the only one on Oerth who remembers Vecna being around the first time. (Using the timeline in the History of Oerth link on page one.)

Rikandur, Iggwilv is not a demigoddess, but a very powerful arcane spellcaster. She is probably comparable in power to Mordenkainen, focusing on summoning and necromancy. I can give you some information on Tuerny the Merciless from the adventure The Return of the Eight. (Iggwilv does not get along with Graz'zt, Iuz's father, but many families have their rough spots.)

Here are some links that I found. Many concern the nature of the planet and its continents. Ironically, one answers a question I asked Serpenteye about. Apparently, not only is Oerth at the center of its solar system, the stars seem to exist within the Crystal Sphere. (Airwhale is our Greyspace expert,)

I can help out people with concepts as well as PC leaders for their factions, based on what I know of Greyhawk. Some demipowers might work well, and there are hero deities who might serve to add some Greyhawk flavor to your factionLiving Greyhawk deities, demigods, and hero deities. (I am waiting for an old Living Greyhawk Journal to arrive that details the hero deities.)

One version of the Oerik continent, using some of the Chainmail stuff. (At least the names are better than the ones on the Oerik map. This article might help you generate some ideas, such as dwarves in a mountain chain west of the Celestial Imperium or maybe a Hobgoblin Empire.): http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=364

Oerth Summary: http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=15

The Grodog's Greyhawk Adventures (Yes, this does even include a list of place names that includes Demiplanes.): http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html

Oerth from the Ground Up: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~monax002/Council/OJ3/go1.html

Measuring Oerth from the Ground Up: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~monax002/Council/OJ4/measure.html

Gord's Greyhawk (Place names and people from E. Gary Gygax's Gord the Rogue novels):
http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/bakluni.html

The High History of the Flanaess (Includes a timeline for Aquaria.): http://www.tc.umn.edu/~monax002/Council/OJ1/history3.html

 

[William Ronald]

(OOC: I will catch up later, as I have been up late working on a few things. I will be getting back to a more normal schedule soon. So, I am trying to get all the research out of hte way. I promised this for Bugbear, so I will catch up to the rest of the action soon.)

Al'Akbar, King Ogrim Scarseer, and Caliph Xargun of Zeif approach the Palace of the Caliph amid a throng of musicians who greet the King of Greater Nyrond with music and song.

"Hail to thee, King Seth Rhynnon of Greater Nyrond! Welcome to Ekbir and to the Malkuvah Baklunim, the restored Baklunish Empire. Forgive me for not greeting you at the gates, noble King Seth Rhynnon of Greater Nyrond. Caliph Xargun and I have been showing the city to King Ogrim Scarseer of Orcreich and the Khanates. There is still time to see more of the city if you wish."

"It is a great honor to meet you at last, your majesty. You have shown great determination through many trials, and I think you will do well in the trials to come. I hope that our governments can work closely on many issues. Indeed, I believe there are many issues that our respective governments can work on together."

"Indeed, I believe that we must stand together. For I forsee threats to Oerth itself. In such a struggle, perhaps all of the peoples of Oerth and Greyspace shall stand together against common foes. The future is unclear, yet there are many threats as well as opportunities for us all. A time of testing will soon descend upon us all, and the choices we make may decided the fate of many. Yet all is not dark. Despite the threats, we must not abandon hope."

 

[James Heard]

Hi, just wanted to let everyone see a preview version of a newer map for everyone's approval and comments, along with a bunch of comments on it from me.

Notes on my notes:
The equator- On the map I used as my source the equator is suspiciously high on the image. Either the northern third of the map needs to be inflated in size for scale or the southern portion needs to be reduced in compensation.

The poles- the poles are truncated and pinched. Futhermore the southern pole doesn't make an awful lot of sense as a collection of islands. Either the cartography notes got garbled from the original map or the cartography notes were wrong.

Flannaess- The Flannaess is a great big heaping mess of spagetti on my map thanks to a wealth of perhaps unneedful detail. If I were released to make it into a more polite looking version I might be able to allow it to have more room to breath and not look so crowded over there. Otherwise I'm afraid that the only sensible solution for the map is going to involve vector graphics so that everything scales up and down perfectly, with a map inset specifically for the Flanaess. That would, of course, mean me completely redoing the map. I have the beginnings of a version I did that way somewhere, but it's no more than an outline and an imagining at this point.

The Logo Ocean- Right where I've got the logo, if I understand correctly, William thinks there should be a continent? Definitely the area doesn't make an awful lot of sense geographically as I normally do things, but that's to be expected considering how old Greyhawk is. Take a look at the map of Arneson's Blackmoor if you have a chance in comparsion. I'm puzzling over where to place some of the places listed as mythical and semi-mythical and needed on the map though, so an island isn't out of hand. On the source map I assumed that the landmass I've got at either edge of the Sea of Thunder/Ocean of Storms was a single landmass and tried to reconcile edges to reflect that. I realize things didn't line up perfectly or cleanly, if you look closely at the Thillonrian Peninsula you'll see worse screwups on my part though If that landmass is supposed to be two continents though, the Solnor is going to have to expand tremendously and Polaria and Hyperboria will make even less sense as polar masses I think.

Fireland- I keep screwing up a correction layer for Fireland because it looks "right" without those deep inlets into the mass. I'm thinking about leaving them out entirely if no one objects. The fjord-ness seems a lot out of whack when you consider the scale I guess.

Tharquish Dominion- In any case I think that the Gulf of Ishtar is seriously lacking in islands, and the source map's "fitting" with continental drift seems a little weirder than even Greyhawk normally does. That sea should be a lot shallow and probably dotted with islands from the horn at the barbarian's lands to the south stretching almost up to the Mare. For that matter the Sea of Thunder as I've presented should be pretty shallow, maybe even comparable to the Azure Sea. That might be an effect of the stretching of the source map's equatorial bias though.

Anyways, I'm open to suggestions. I especially don't have a clue on how to fit all the places that aren't already on the map yet onto it, and I'm not looking forward to redoing the poles or even correcting them so that they reflect an actual polar mass. It's very tempting to correct past cartographic strangeness wholesale, but I'm resisting. Oh yes, and I know this is probably boring and irrelevant to a lot of people but thanks for just bearing with me.

Guilt Puppy: Is there a preferred format/dimension for a final map? If I go to converting the whole deal to vector based I think I can even save as flash files using Illustrator.

Creamsteak: Thanks for taking the time to answer my email. I suppose I will wait for a final approval from Serpenteye pending coming back to the game officially then.

Edit: William Ronald's posts came as I was posting my own. I've been working on a version of Polaria that's not quite as cutesy as my original draft, based on some new books I read over the holidays on pagan europe and the notion that the ancient Aeridians have some sort of schism. This falls neatly into the concept of Aquaria, even if I came up with a completely different name for the idea in my notes (one that didn't have my wincing as I remembered the lyrics to bad songs from the bell bottom era). If I'm reinstated, and I can figure out exactly where I'd put the thing, therefore I'm placing a notice on a tentative claim on "Aquaria" I suppose, or at least some portion of it depending on its size.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

To William OOC:

Pardon me on that. After hearing your schedule, I thought it would be best to start now. Sorry for the unpleasant surprise. : (

To James OOC:

The problem with the Flanaess is, it really is that complicated. A small forest here belongs to one player, the neighboring fields belong to another, and the nearby hills, to yet another.
I don't know what to say. I see no solution to the problem, except that we use Guilt Puppys' map for the Flanaess, and your map for Oerik.

Did anyone notice that the main part of Oerik looks like a starfish?

I see Aquaria on the map, to the southeast. And Anakeris, to the southwest. (William can correct me if that is not Aquaria I am looking at.)

The equator is ... considerably ... too far north.
I, at least, envision the equator as running through the narrowest portion of the 'starfish', then through southernmost Nippon, then just to the south of the southernmost coast of Hempmonaland.
And if that seems to put the Flanaess at too high a latitude, Gygax did comment that the Flanaess was unusually warm for it's latitude, probably due to magic. The northern part of the Flanaess is a frozen tundra that extends pretty far south in some cases, with an abrupt and unnatural transition from an arctic climate to a temperate climate.

Also, it is obvious that that map does ... not ... extend to the poles. If it did, the entire upper and lower portions of the map would show as land, since land covers both poles (consider how Antarctica looks on wall maps.)
We see only the greater part of Hyperboria. The highest latitudes of Hyberboria are above the map.
We see only a part of Polaria. The rest of it is below the map.

On a side note, I seem to remember that Oerth has a colossal 30 degree axle tilt. Just commenting, because such a tilt would create drastically different climes than the 23 degree tilt of our real life Earth.
Take Hyperboria. If Earth was tilted at 30 degrees, Antarctica could not exist in the frozen state it is in now, because summers would be too warm. It might be partially frozen, but the colossal ice cap would not exist. And thus, Hyperboria is warm enough during the summer for peoples, animals, and even trees, in various isolated areas, while large parts of it are indeed cold and buried in ice.
In the Flanaess, a 30 degree tilt should produce very hot summers and bitterly cold winters. We see the hot summers, but magic is being used to mitigate the winters somehow ...

- - -

My main suggestion to you, James, is to move the equator south. To put it in the line described: running from the west edge of the map through the narrowest part of the 'starfish' of western Oerik, then across southernmost Nippon, then through the ocean just south of the southern coast of Hempmonaland (or maybe just touching the south shore of Hempmonaland), then off the east side of the map.
That is, after all, the approximate 'center' of the map, based on a visual inspection of it, from top to bottom.

EDIT: I mean, the equator could be slightly north of there. I don't have a ruler handy to measure the exact center of the map. But in my honest opinion that's where I think the equator is.

EDIT: The only way to simplify the Flanaess would be to look at Guilt Puppys' map, see how holds what, and eliminate lines separating territories held by one player (thus, for instance, Knight Otu's vast holdings in the eastern Flanaess would become one territory.)
But that would be a horrendous amount of work, since there are so many claims, involving so many tiny countries and places (yes, you could turn the League of Athyr into one territory, but you'd have to check and recheck all those tiny claims around it, so they did not get lost, and ... it just sounds like an awful lot of work.)
I mean, where it is quite obvious and relatively easy to change things (Guilt Puppy holds all of the Tivanot Peninsula, for instance, and Bugbear holds a large, solid block of territory) you might simplify, but why make more work for yourself?
Again, I say: we could just use Guilt Puppys' map (which is a really nice map ) for the Flanaess, and your beautiful map for the rest of Oerth. Why not?

EDIT: Why not use the current 'projection' of the map? Yes, there is distortion as one moves towards the poles, but the burden should not be on you to fix that. It's not your fault that they published the map in wall map format. You shouldn't have to do the work to turn it into another projection, such as the Mercator Projection.

EDIT: That landmass on the southeast side of the map is not an extension of the landmass seen in the southwest. Those are two distinctly different continents ... I know the southwest one is Anakeris, and I think the southeast one is Aquaria.

EDIT: There is no need to extend the map all the way to the poles (I am assuming the last 10 degrees of latitude were 'cut off' on this map, and it only goes to 80 to 85 degrees north and south.) We can just assume powers who control the adjacent areas have influence at the actual poles, or that the poles are disputed between two or more players.
On a map projection like this, there is such severe distortion beyond 80 degrees north and south, that why bother? And the only way to correct the distortion is to change the 'projection' of the map, which is too much work.

EDIT: Ok, there is one thing you could do with the Flanaess, if you have Guilt Puppys' map at hand to compare with.
Just remove all the 'patently obvious' territories where there are groupings of territories held by one player. William holds a large block of territories. So does Eluvan with the League of Athyr. Knight Otu does. Bugbear does. Rikandur does. Guilt Puppy does. Even Xael does. You could eliminate the more obvious territories where they are repetitive.
But where claims are all jumbled together, such as around Greyhawk City, in the Pomarj and around Celene, in the Iron League, in the Thillronian Peninsula, in the mountains ... I mean, it's a mess of claims, and you shouldn't have to knock yourself out trying to neaten all that out. Not fair to you.

 

[Bugbear]

The Map

In the Flanaess, a 30 degree tilt should produce very hot summers and bitterly cold winters. We see the hot summers, but magic is being used to mitigate the winters somehow ...

Something to consider. Will the sealing effect those magics? Will uncontrolled use of high Magick effect those magics?

EDIT: That landmass on the southeast side of the map is not an extension of the landmass seen in the southwest. Those are two distinctly different continents ... I know the southwest one is Anakeris, and I think the southeast one is Aquaria.

Are they different continents in the sense that Africa and Australia are different or in the way Europe and Asia are different. It looks to me like one land mass. If we just say that the eastern portion is Aquaria and the western portion is Anakeris it saves James a lot of work.

Notes on my notes:
The Logo Ocean- Right where I've got the logo, if I understand correctly, William thinks there should be a continent? Definitely the area doesn't make an awful lot of sense geographically as I normally do things, but that's to be expected considering how old Greyhawk is. Take a look at the map of Arneson's Blackmoor if you have a chance in compassion. I'm puzzling over where to place some of the places listed as mythical and semi-mythical and needed on the map though, so an island isn't out of hand. On the source map I assumed that the landmass I've got at either edge of the Sea of Thunder/Ocean of Storms was a single landmass and tried to reconcile edges to reflect that. I realize things didn't line up perfectly or cleanly, if you look closely at the Thillonrian Peninsula you'll see worse screw ups on my part though If that landmass is supposed to be two continents though, the Solnor is going to have to expand tremendously and Polaria and Hyperboria will make even less sense as polar masses I think.

The "logo Ocean" might be a good place to put the Isle of the Phoenix, rather than another Continent.

Tharquish Dominion- In any case I think that the Gulf of Ishtar is seriously lacking in islands, and the source map's "fitting" with continental drift seems a little weirder than even Greyhawk normally does. That sea should be a lot shallow and probably dotted with islands from the horn at the barbarian's lands to the south stretching almost up to the Mare. For that matter the Sea of Thunder as I've presented should be pretty shallow, maybe even comparable to the Azure Sea. That might be an effect of the stretching of the source map's equatorial bias though.

A string of islands would make sense. On the other hand, perhaps there was a catastrophe which created that gulf. it may be a deep rift where a once great nation stood before it was destroyed by it's own greed.

Anyways, I'm open to suggestions. I especially don't have a clue on how to fit all the places that aren't already on the map yet onto it, and I'm not looking forward to redoing the poles or even correcting them so that they reflect an actual polar mass. It's very tempting to correct past cartographic strangeness wholesale, but I'm resisting. Oh yes, and I know this is probably boring and irrelevant to a lot of people but thanks for just bearing with me.

You shouldn't have to. No map is perfect, and we aren't dealing with satellite imagery. Some extension of Polaria is necessary though.

 

[Guilt Puppy]

Guilt Puppy: Is there a preferred format/dimension for a final map? If I go to converting the whole deal to vector based I think I can even save as flash files using Illustrator. [/i]

Anything non-lossy format will be good; 2-bit black and white is actually best to start off with, and the higher the resolution, the better (well, so long as it's not too big memory-wise to work with.)...

...

Also, regarding the ABCD spell or whatever ("overpowered thing"), I'm actually going against my initial response, and suggesting we don't ban it.

Why?

Because, out of dissatisfaction with the terms of Nyrond's Apocalypse Pact, the Scarlet Brotherhood would like to invite delegates from the following powers to Kro Kerlep to discuss the terms of an alternative agreement, to be known as the Apocalypse Accord:

- The Bakluni Empire
- The Collective Overminds
- The Cult of Ashardalon
- The Empire of Eclavdor
- The Empire of the Wolf God
- The Kabalim
- The Triumvirate Rebellious

These powers have been selected based on a careful assessment of their magical capacity as well as their vulnerability to an attack of this nature. Other powers interested in participating in the formation of this accord are welcome to request invitation, and should structure their argument with regard to these criteria. Once the terms of the Accord have been reached, of course, all nations great and small will be welcome to sign into it.

The goals of the Accord, as it differs from Nyrond's Pact, are as follows:
- First, to make the restrictions of the agreement more general, to protect the powers involved from not only this specific spell, but other means of mass destruction, as well, be they magical, biological, or otherwise.
- Second, to make the process of retribution and retaliation more specific, and to provide a mechanism for ensuring full participation in any retaliatory strike, that such threat of retribution may be a more convincing and effective deterrent.
- Third, to address the issue of proliferation, and establish a methodology by which it can be limited and controlled.
- Finally, to establish a means of amendment, such that unforeseen threats of a massively destructive nature can be unquestionably included in its terms as they arise; otherwise, there is a significant risk of fragmentation between members of the Accord that will ultimately weaken our collective ability to deter any such threat.

The Brotherhood requests to be notified by the invited powers as soon as possible of their intent or refusal to participate in this delegation. Given the prospective urgency of this issue, we wish to have terms finalized by the end of Turn One.

 

[Serpenteye]

Happy new year!

As you've probably noticed I've been away for a while (family obligations ), and EN-World (as well as Hotmail) has been rather hard to load this last week. It's good to see the game is still alive. Rest assured, my break from the EN-World is about to end, I will be back tomorrow to answer your questions and E-Mails. But I will spend this day and this night in the company of my other friends, in somber celebration. Thousands of my fellow countrymen are dead or missing in Thailand and my thoughts are now with them and the millions of other victims of the disaster. But, the game will go on.

Happy new year.

 

[James Heard]

I'm possibly gone for the day in a few hours, so I thought I'd share my morning project of sliding Oerth around for another look with everyone. I realize this version is pretty darn ugly, but I think I finally added enough room for William's extra miles AND pushed the northern boundary of the map successfully up enough that the Equator more or less reads as about where you think it might ought to be. Plenty of room for more continents I think, or at least landmasses that might seem continental to Oerthians.

I think consolidating a lot of people's claims might be just the thing in the Flannaess. The problem being the factions that have tiny bits claimed every which way in the middle of other people's territories, I think I might want to simply leave those factions out in the end -surely those factions are weening off of substantial infiltration of another faction?

Guilt Puppy: Ok, from now on I will be working with 2 color images. No problem whatsoever, in fact rather the opposite.

Edit: Attaching a VERY rough consolidation of territories for the Flannaess. I think I went a little overboard, but it was so much noodles I was having trouble figuring it out. At least this way you can see the relative dimensions of people's territories a little better for now. I hope no one is offended about the tiny one block territories on the map that have suddenly disappeared though!

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

((OFF TOPIC))

(observes a minute of silence for the victims of the worst tsunami disaster in history)

(solemnly) Welcome back, Serpenteye.

-

-

-

TO BUGBEAR

Again, I am certain the map does not extend to the poles, but only to about 80 degrees latitude north and south. So yes, Polaria could be expanded. Of course, with the projection system that map is using (the standard wall map type projection) the distortion is going to be terrible south of 80 degrees south latitude.
Other than an enormous amount of work to change the projection of the map, I don't know what can be done about it, either.

TO JAMES

The equator is still too far north, IMHO. About 1 inch further down, so that it just touches the southernmost shore of Hempmonland. That's my take.

Concerning consolidating territories in the Flanaess, here are the two links to Guilt Puppys' map:

http://www.rowf.net/ir/maptest/map-edit.php
http://www.rowf.net/ir/maptest/map-view.php

I guess if you had it in front of you, you could consolidate territories. A lot of work. Kudos to you, James.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(puts someone back in the roster, with his permission)

James is back with us.