Is 4th edition getting soft? - edited for friendly content :)

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Well, Jozan knows that the Bodak is around the corner and casts Death Ward on the party. The Bodak ability is a Supernatural Death Ability and should protect the party from the attack.

Is there another arguement you had in mind?

He does? Bodaks are never encountered as random encounters? They arent encountered in groups? Really, if its so simple to counter, why have it in the first place? See pit traps triggered by 10' poles. Lets dispense with prodding each section of the floor one at a time.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

If someone tries to toss lava onto you, you get a save (basically to avoid the stuff). Immersing yourself in lava? I can't buy into any game that allows a character (without some form of protection) to swim in lava or dance on the surface of the sun.

YMMV.

RC

Yeah, I'd chalk that up with "I cut my throat with this dagger". You'll take more than d4 damage.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yeah, I'd chalk that up with "I cut my throat with this dagger". You'll take more than d4 damage.

Exactly. 1d4 is what you take trying to avoid the dagger. If you don't try, it's a coup-de-grace.

RC

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Exactly. 1d4 is what you take trying to avoid the dagger. If you don't try, it's a coup-de-grace.

RC

Yeah, the fact that lava "only" does 20d6 is the pity attempt to let you have a chance to get out. Though you'll have to be pretty tough to even have that shot.

I've always been amused that punching a remorhaz deals you 8d6 damage, while punching lava deals you 2d6.

 

[Remathilis]

Is there another argument you had in mind?

Sure.

1.) Jozan isn't as omnipotent as his Deity and when he opens the door, and *bammo* there is a bodak in a 10x10 room guardian a undead pie.

2.) Jozan has ONE of his TWO fourth level spells (excluding domain, assuming 18 wis) dedicated to death ward (the other being, I dunno, Neutralize Poison) which means three out of the four members is SOL... (Target: one living creature)

3.) Jozan forgot to ask "is there a bodak behind door number one?" when casting augury at the door...

4.) Or doesn't have perpetual "detect undead" cast (or the room has the requisite thickness to avoid detection... )

5.) Jozan didn't read the module ahead of time to know room 22 has a bodak and a +2 sword in it. (thanks Simia Saturnalia)

6.) Jozan's party doesn't believe in the 15 minute work-day and since they have the vast majority of their hp and spells, (@75%) they shoot for one more room before resting...

7.) The bodak hears the party coming (I mean +11 listen vs. two people in full plate?) and simply opens the door while Lidda is searching the door for traps and Jozan is casting his wards and buffs (and I'm sure even the 6 int, 12 wis bodak is smart enough to get the jump on people outside his chamber door)

8.) The bodak is on the wandering monster table in the front of the module.

Is there another argument you had in mind?

 

[allenw]

Let's see,, walls of force can be shaped, so they do work like that, they are invisiable, so you have line of sight and that is exactly how maximized and empowered work, takes the varible die and maxes it and empower multiplies it by 1.5 1d4+1 maximized equals 5 then empowered equals 7.

I believe you are incorrect (or draw an incorrect inference) on all three counts, per the 3.5 RAW.
Wall of Force creates "a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10-foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed." So, no tubes, domes, boxes, etc. And it's not a burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread, so an Archmage's "Mastery of Shaping" wouldn't apply, though even if it did you couldn't make a tube with it.
Walls of Force are invisible, so they don't break line of sight; however, they *do* break line of effect, which is what matters in this case.
Maximize + Empower explicitly doesn't work that way. See the description of Maximize Spell: "An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result."

 

[DM-Rocco]

Actually that problem is more of the 'Massive Damage at level 27' thing and was intended as an example of how boring I think the SoD effects are.

To me SoD are boring - that's the issue. Not only in effect but in what they may force the player to do (or not do as the case may be). I'm at the table to game Not sit there watch others game and do nothing else for the rest of the fight.

My issue with SoD is that it can take you from full to dead in round one without getting to react. Yes, large enough damage totals can do that as well - I understand that. But there are so many different SoD effects out there that fights get to the point where it is just 'who rolls a 1 first'.

Maybe outright immunities are a problem that cause this as well.

Fire Damage? Nope, it's immune.
Ice Damage? Immune.
Acid? No effect either.
Sword damage? Not enough to get past it's DR.
Holy? Try again.

There are so many combinations that just have no effect that it's easier to force the DM (and the players) to just fail a saving throw. What's the point of giving the critter 900 hit points if the only thing that can hurt it is a 1 on a SoD?

As a player, SoD is boring to me in both directions. There is no thrill in that single die roll. Saving with a single die roll has about as much thrill as opening that candy wrapper to see if I won 1 million dollars.

Don't get me wrong - having it all come down to a single die roll can be fun. If i'm down to sing digit hp with no hope of healing and I need to land the sword blow to take out the wizard that is keeping some effect going that is keeping our cleric out of the fight so he can...

That is cool. Everyone will be holding their breath to see if I hit the bad guy. That is drama.

But that drama isn't coming from a single die roll. It may come down to a single die roll but more has caused that drama than just the one roll result. That drama has built up over the entire fight (maybe the entire session) by having spells cast and hp whittled away. It's come from the cleric getting seporated from the party; from the wizard taking the full force of the damage spell and the fighter having to mow his way through the mob of underlings.

On the other hand SoD is a single die roll. That's it. No difference in how it affects the PC if it comes at the start of the fight or near the end. The difference comes in how it affects the player. If I fail a SoD on round one I may be sitting out the entire fight (yes, the cleric might raise me or something) but if I fail near the end the fight at least I got to do something other than watch TV (by myself) at a friend's house.

My problem with SoD is that it is everywhere at higher levels. Do we really need both Wail of the Banshee and Power Word: Kill? Everyone casts them because at higher levels everything is immune to everything. Have death effects drain CON, have Flesh to Stone drain DEX. These will kill a PC/NPC/Critter over a few rounds. To me that will build up the drama and that is what I want to see.

First, you can say what you want, but if you won a million bucks from a candy wrapper you would be very thrilled

Draining of CON IMO is a worse thing that SoD effects and kills almost as quickly. I researve SoD effects because it is never fair to have the PCs make so many checks to SoD. However, the odds are never in favor of the PCs. Just be the simple nature of the game, high level PCs have to be very lucky for a long time to get the die rolls in order to survive. SoD is just a small part of that.

The bottom line though is that there are so many horrors in the world that can kill you with a SoD effect but by the time you get to those levels you will have ways to deal with them, i.e. steadfast determination, luck feats, death ward, become undead and others.

High level PCs can become immune to all energy attacks too, should we take away a dragons breath weapon because the players are going to be immune to it as well?

With out the risk of death you will lose the fear of things like the death knight. Without fear of SoD, the game becomes a friendlier and gentlier place to play, not more exciting.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Now let's say Jozan hasn't read the module first, since I can't think of any of the detection spells worth keeping up at all times that gives you advance warning of the specific type of undead out of your line of sight*. So there's no Death Ward.

Now what?

* If there is one, let's say he's out of that level of spells for now.

Well, if you say they are out of level for it right now then you are don't allowing the arguement to follow a natural progression but that is another story.

The PCs, if exploring a tomb, should get a feeling by all the other undead that something big is coming up and as a precaution should cast death ward for the end boss, which the Bodak should be at this level.

Now, if the PCs are just walking around the corner of the town bar and a Bodak is somehow there just hanging around, yes, then you should get the situation described before. Although, the CR would be higher because the CR of the Bodak takes into account things like its SoD effect and what the PCs can and can't do to protect themselves from it.

The PCs, if they have half a brain, should have a clue that they are about to face something big and every player (that I know, so don't say I am speaking for the free world) that can cast death ward does so and all the time when about to face, or suspecting to face the big bad end boss or in any situation that envolves undead that may drain energy or use SoD. So, unless the PCs are facing a nasty band of orcs and have no for warning that a Bodak is locked in the orc shamans closet,(as happened in the Slavers A1 module, but with a Medusa) then they should get a clue and have it on as much as possable.

 

[shilsen]

With out the risk of death you will lose the fear of things like the death knight. Without fear of SoD, the game becomes a friendlier and gentlier place to play, not more exciting.

For you, of course. As many of the posts above indicate, not so for some people. I've almost completely dropped the fear of death out of my game, but that hasn't affected my ability to retain the fear of many things (especially gnomes, but that's a different story) and keep the game as exciting as before, if not more so. As long as there is the possibility of failure and the existence of consequences (of which death is only one and, for me, a boring one) in the game, retaining fear is not a problem. And a lot of the time, the real possibility of death would actually diminish both fear and excitement. At least for me. YMMV, and apparently does.

 

[Psion]

Not just you. Knowing that Bad Things are out there, and that they might get you, is part of the fun of the game, IMHO. When my players fought a grell, and mistook it for a mind flayer, the fact that they knew encountering a mind flayer was possible made a significant difference in how fun the game was.

The opening of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is a good case on both sides. How boring it would be if Indy just shrugged and said, "You know what? I don't need your antidote. The poison won't kill me." Equally, how boring it would be if Indy had simply keeled over and died.

In The Princess Bride, though, you wouldn't want the Sicilian fighting the Dread Pirate Roberts for the antidote for iocane powder either, nor would you want him to have several rounds in which to kill Buttercup.

There is a place for both types of effect in the game. SoD effects should be relatively rare, whereas "scrabble for antidote" effects are more fun and can be far more common. Knowing that SoD is out there, though, helps make SfA more fun.

Exactly.

If the supposition is correct that "death attack" type effects are simply going away (as opposed to saves just going away), that's just trading one sort of boredom for another.

The real fix would be to make death attack type effects where they exist to be more to the tune of "looming threat" and less to the tune of TPK.

IOW, Bodaks should be gone or revamped, but death attacks in general should still be an option.