D&D 2E Is 5e Basically Becoming Pathfinder 2e?

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It was common practice in my area in the 80s - though not without revue & restrictions, and flat-out denial if the character was somehow unacceptable.

Yeah, same thing back in the 80's. There wasn't as much a sense of there being a "world" you character inhabited; you were in whatever world you happened to be playing in. (Cue Twilight Zone theme music...)

Of course, you would be very, very careful bringing a beloved character into another DMs game because you didn't want a jerk DM killing off your character for his own amusement. It's weird, but even as teenagers we knew it just wasn't acceptable to resurrect a character that got killed off that way. Dead was dead.
 

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DwynnsPlace

First Post
D&D GENRE"

D&D Genre' A comment and reminder about D&D and the limits we chose to play by.

1: Player and DM coordinate to establish understanding of the general idea of the campaign setting.

2: Discussions revolve around players and DM's to establish PC character concepts, development options such as, whether or not to swap feats with skill points, professions or any other character development background points and utility of printed material for character individualization such as UA, Sage, Dragon Magazine ect....

3: Character reviews should be done before game night and level, class, kit, professions, equipment and general PC concepts should be hashed out beforehand.

4: PC's should be developed fully with background, interests, motivations, Ideology, Flaws, Feats or not, Total character points for skills and abilities as well.

5: If your group is Adventure League you can forget most of this as AL requires exacting steadfast restrictions and adherance to listed, rules and Authorized content. (define Authorized)

6: If your group is open to flexible use of "Approved D&D gaming Material such as Sage, UA, Handbooks, and any other D&D concept material approved through the ages or agrees to follow specific "generational" D&D such as AD&D, 2nd Edit., 3.5, 4, 5e, then all the better for you and your group.
Remember, most of those groups will not be able to play that developed character in an AL tournament...too much diversity for AL new generation players to grasp. Also too much data for most new players to be aware of.


7: For those seeking to have a good time playing in a campaign My advice is to listen to the DM, get a really good feel for his concept and interpretation of his world, create a character that fits his world and that fits your idea of a fun character and work with the other players to have fun.

8: For those players that want to mini-max and select only abilities, feats, skills, that might contribute to an OP idea of a character, your playing the wrong game.

FOR EVERYONE:
pg 6 AD&D 2nd edit. Players Handbook
"Everything in the ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS system has purpose; most of what is found herein is essential to the campaign, and those sections which are not --such as sub-classes of characters, psionics, and similar material -- are clearly labeled as optional for inclusion. What is here is, hopefully, presented in as logical a sequence as possible, clearly, understandable, and with as few ambiguities as could be managed. Many readers will want more material. There is a wealth of commercial and fan material available for fulfilling such needs. Similarly, even the most important material herein can be altered and bent to suit the needs of individual campaigns. Where possible true guidelines have been laid down to provide the barest of frameworks for those areas of the campaign which should be most unusual and unique. Read the work (or both works if you are the DM) through and assess for yourself what ADVANCED D&D really is. I am convinced that it does for old D&D + suppliments what GREYHAWK did for D&D when it first appeared, and then some."
~ Gary Gygax ~ @1978 -- TSR Games.

Pg 2 ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS DMG Forward:
This book holds much in store for you as a DM -- it is your primary tool in constructing your own "world", or melieu. It contains a wealth of material, and combined with other works of ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS ( the MONSTER MANUAL and PLAYERS HANDBOOK) gives you all the information you need to play AD&D. But, as always, one more thing is needed -- your imagination. Use the written material as your foundation and inspiration, then explore the creative possibilities you have in your own mind to make your game something special.
~Mike Carr~ TSR Games and Rules Editor 16 May 1979

pg 3 ADVANCED DUNGEON & DRAGONS UNEARTHED ARCANA Preface in parte'"
"The AD&D @ Game system is dynamic. It grows and changes and expands. Our universe does all this, and so too the multiverse of this game system. The description and definition of an infinite multiverse must necessarily be done piecemeal -- adding new discoveries as they come to light, expanding horizons as the sum total of our past knowledge allows. As the original volumes of the game system (monster manual, Players Handbook, and Dungeon Masters Guide) have altered from their first editions, so the game has changed in form and substance. This new material grew from my own campaign, articles published in DRAGON@ Magazine, and input from many Dungeon Masters and Players also. The book has a single purpose: Unearthed Arcana brings new dimensions to the AD&D game system. The compiled material which lies herein offers fresh new approaches to play without materially affecting any ongoing campaign adversely,"
This work does not alter former "Laws of the multiverses," but it does open insights and vistas beyond those previously understood and seen. All the participants of a campaign will find this material of greatest interest and benefit to them. Dungeon Masters will discover new sub-races and their inter-relationships, new deity models for non-humans, and much in the way of magic -- a trove of spells and items indeed! Players, of course, benefit from all of that and more. There are new horizons for demi-human characters, new professional callings, new weapons, new approaches to just about everything. Yes, some of the material has appeared previously, but here it is carefully revised, edited, and compiled so as to change it from a possible insertion to an integral part of a vital campaign. There are new choices, new possibilities, new opportunities, and new ideas laid out before you. Best of all, these rest upon the solid foundation of the AD&D game system -- the most widely accepted and played role-playing game in the world.
~GARY GYGAX~ May 1, 1985

Why did I include these quotes from the AD&D books?
As a teenager in the late 70's and early 80's I found the game and the stories I played in, quite exhilarating and the DM's I played with had such imagination that I was entranced in the D&D genre' from then on. Through the decades, I found as Gary is quoted, that there truly were new insights, horizons where crossed and fully explored. New concepts and ideas developed. Laylines, Nexus, wild magic and magic in many forms, Humanoids, Of which I love to play and challenge players with. The title of the books may have altered, the artwork may have developed and improved (Greatly) but the core concepts of the game are solid. The rules are guidelines for play, The books are a base or foundation to work from but in no way the only interpretation out there. The laws of the multiverse are vague, limitless, flexible and malleable. The dimensions of the game are limitless and can be divergent. House rules can be as limited or flexible as a DM and or his players decide.

New generation players, those playing in say the past 4 or 5 years, the information I provided above is a guide and nothing more, play as you and your friends like.

Lastly, the D&D genre' game/s is/are to be fun for everyone.

Hope my diatribe was not too severe.

DM: 8318686838
~Dave~ AKA David Niewoehner
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
8: For those players that want to mini-max and select only abilities, feats, skills, that might contribute to an OP idea of a character, your playing the wrong game.
Maybe in the sense you should be focusing on abilities, class, sub-class, feats, & /spells/. ;P
Seriously, though, 5e is vulnerable to system-mastery (OP if you mean 'optimal') and a it's entirely possible to have a character be overpowered (another sense of OP) whether through applied system mastery, random luck at chargen, gaming the DM, or the largess of a potent magic item 'drop' .... 5e is a fine game for the player wanting to enjoy an exceptional character - some of the time.
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
8: For those players that want to mini-max and select only abilities, feats, skills, that might contribute to an OP idea of a character, your playing the wrong game.

You were spot on until you wrote this. (likely an afterthought) because everything before it contradicts the absolute in this point.

1. No one plays a game in order to suck at anything. We can do that in real life without playing a game or spending on books. Low cost to entry to suck.
2. People play in order to have a good time, hang with friends and be somewhat escapist.
3. So as long as a DM works with his or her players so everyone can accomplish "fun" together they're fine.
4. If "fun" means min/maxing to a few people then it's the DMs job to work through that.

We've all min/maxed before with a character and most if not all DMs have had to work through that with players even when there's a mixed group of min/max'ers and role players.

Reality is that everyone is a min maxer, it's just where they min max in the character concept process. If you spend more time on story then your story is maxed out. But in order to support that story, you're going to need at least one fighter on serious juice..

Sorry for being difficult.
KB.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
4. If "fun" means min/maxing to a few people then it's the DMs job to work through that.
Disparate levels of min-maxing within a group of players quickly leads to way WAY more imbalance between characters than random stat rolling can ever produce. Been there, seen that.

Reality is that everyone is a min maxer,
To highly varying degrees
it's just where they min max in the character concept process. If you spend more time on story then your story is maxed out.
Er...how does one min-max a story? Min-maxing by definition is seeking a mechanical advantage, isn't it?
But in order to support that story, you're going to need at least one fighter on serious juice.
Not at all true. It's very possible to have a front-line-by-committee - the party I currently play in has for a front line a War Cleric, a couple of half-Fighters/half-other-thing multiclasses, and an enthusiastic Rogue. Not a true tank in the lot, though the War Cleric tries his best; and no-one on "serious juice".

Lanefan
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Disparate levels of min-maxing within a group of players quickly leads to way WAY more imbalance between characters than random stat rolling can ever produce. Been there, seen that.
What about the group with disparate levels of min-maxing where the most inveterate optimizer rolls the highest stats, and the one with the least system mastery rolls badly? Seems like that'd produce a tremendous level of imbalance...

Also, how many feats do you think you could spot someone before the handicap made up for another's min-maxing? I mean, feats are supposed to be pretty awesome, they're probably part of the min/max formula, and they're equivalent to an ASI, which is +2 to a stat, so if min-maxers gravitate to variant humans for their one bonus feat, how much are they going to like getting a +2 to a stat over and above the next guy, free & clear? How 'bout in more than +2. How 'bout in several stats?

More imbalance is more imbalance, sometimes you can get lucky and a bunch of imbalances are countervailing, but don't count on it.

To highly varying degrees Er...how does one min-max a story? Min-maxing by definition is seeking a mechanical advantage, isn't it?
It's seeking an advantage, certainly. Another way to put it is 'gaming the system' - you can game all sorts of systems, not just rules. And, you can 'game' people in the same sense. In 5e, gaming the DM is probably the most optimal of optimization strategies, if the social dynamics are on your side...
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
Disparate levels of min-maxing within a group of players quickly leads to way WAY more imbalance between characters than random stat rolling can ever produce. Been there, seen that.

To highly varying degrees Er...how does one min-max a story? Min-maxing by definition is seeking a mechanical advantage, isn't it?
Not at all true. It's very possible to have a front-line-by-committee - the party I currently play in has for a front line a War Cleric, a couple of half-Fighters/half-other-thing multiclasses, and an enthusiastic Rogue. Not a true tank in the lot, though the War Cleric tries his best; and no-one on "serious juice".

Lanefan

Hi Lanefan -

So couple things here.

"Highly varying degrees" is relative. I think the conversation gets more manageable when you talk about a particular group of people. Yes, you're right, anyone who has gamed for a long time has seen maybe 100 gamers and inside that number you see the world and all of its colors but it comes down to who you have at the table for your particular game at the time. My sweet spot is only having to deal with six personalities at a time, but I've had to deal with many more than that for specific events and game types.

Back to D&D though, and to your question about min maxing a story.

1. My definition of min/max isn't just dice roll manipulation, it's anything that gives a character a reasonable and significant advantage over other characters.
2. I've got two examples of min/maxing a story:

First, a player through excellent development of backstory, significant role-play enabled by that backstory and good thinking on her part, managed to politically neuter an enemy, making it exceptionally difficult for him to operate, then managed to negotiate a deal with his major backer (with the help of some judicious party combat). When the time was right, she went evil and TPK'd the group leaving her apprentice alive to grow up and lead the next group to come after her.

Granted the end of this example was metagamed some. She knew she completely screwed the group, but because no one realized it until the last act, it made for a great follow up game.

Second, again through some good backstory and good roleplaying, another player managed to put a Paladin player character in a hard spot. He was framed for an assassination of a rival clergyman and either had to take his punishment or blame his own daughter for the crime. Say what you want about your god making a decision about whether or not you fall as a pally, but when the entire kingdom thinks you're evil and you lose the faith of the populace, it causes problems. This was made worse by the fact that the Paladin's player never saw this coming until about two game sessions before he got arrested.

So there's more than just mechanical min/maxing in D&D. Good writing can trump a +2. One is immediately gratifying, the other is a longer play.

That said, both of these players needed the mechanical min maxer at some point to get their agendas on table. In the first case, she maxed out her political skill. In the second case the paladin was the min maxer and the way the story played out he put himself in the noose.

Nuff said here.
KB
 



GameOgre

Adventurer
Yes 5E is 100% following in Pathfinders steps! We ALREADY have another rule book out? Geez! Money Grab if I ever saw one!

At this rate it's not going to be long at all,like maybe 2090 before we are at the exact same spot pathfinder is at! OMG!

Heck Pathfinder used to be at this VERY SPOT two days after release!

Wake up WOTC and realize 2090 is only 72 years away! Not that long for a D&D edition!

:D
 

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