D&D 5E Is 5e's Success Actually Bad for Other Games?

[darjr]

Flawed argument.

If my character goes to the latrines I know exactly what will happen in D&D and that is not on my character sheet.

It’s far far worse in 4e. I remember often people complaining that players would be looking at their character sheets a lot.

also for advantage, a skill check is not required. If a player does something cool don’t penalize them or gate thier cool thing, just give em advantage.

 

[loverdrive]

Now, let's talk ways 5e success could be really beneficial for the hobby in general.

I'd personally have exactly zero problems with 5e if it didn't pretend to be the only TTRPG out there and didn't try to set up a trap for all the new players.

If it did acknowledge all the things it can't do (well, okay, can do but sucks at) and instead of suggesting "gritty realism resting rules" for campaigns that aren't about combat it said "nah, this isn't a game for that, go try something else — Burning Wheel or Fate, maybe?", the TTRPG hobby in general would be much much healthier.

 

[Marc_C]

Now, let's talk ways 5e success could be really beneficial for the hobby in general.

I'd personally have exactly zero problems with 5e if it didn't pretend to be the only TTRPG out there and didn't try to set up a trap for all the new players.

If it did acknowledge all the things it can't do (well, okay, can do but sucks at) and instead of suggesting "gritty realism resting rules" for campaigns that aren't about combat it said "nah, this isn't a game for that, go try something else — Burning Wheel or Fate, maybe?", the TTRPG hobby in general would be much much healthier.

False argument again.

There are no D&D traps in gaming stores. The shelves of gaming stores are filled with other RPGs that do other things. There are even (you will be happy) Apocalypse Worlds and Fate books on the shelves at my local store. Also Amazon, is a thing, for those who don't think this is still the early 90s.

Trying D&D first doesn't mean you are trapped by it like an heroine addict. From the start in the early 80s there have always been players I met who decided D&D was not for them after a game or two. Some left on good terms to play CoC, which was the big non-D&D rpg back then. Other became prolselytizers of all things CoC and telling use how D&D was bad. There have been a long list of anti-D&D games movements over the decades (Vampire) and now AW (narratives) for people who like to proselytize.

If you think you will convert people to AW with the way you are always putting down D&D it's not going to work. You are only pushing back people. Your time would be better spent on AW forums helping new players understand how it works since you are such a good proponent of it.

 

[loverdrive]

False argument again.

There are no D&D traps in gaming stores. The shelves of gaming stores are filled with other RPGs that do other things. There are even (you will be happy) Apocalypse Worlds and Fate books on the shelves at my local store. Also Amazon, is a thing, for those who don't think this is still the early 90s.

Trying D&D first doesn't mean you are trapped by it like an heroine addict. From the start in the early 80s there have always been players I met who decided D&D was not for them after a game or two. Some left on good terms to play CoC, which was the big non-D&D rpg back then. Other became prolselytizers of all things CoC and telling use how D&D was bad. There have been a long list of anti-D&D games movements over the decades (Vampire) and now AW (narratives) for people who like to proselytize.

If you think you will convert people to AW with the way you are always putting down D&D it's not going to work. You are only pushing back people. Your time would be better spent on AW forums helping new players understand how it works since you are such a good proponent of it.

Except people who get into D&D don't do that because they saw it on a shelf in some store. They do that because they've seen it in Stranger Things or whatever.

For normies, D&D is synonymous with role-playing games — and since it does zero effort to explain that it's not the only one — it often ends up being the only roleplaying game a normie encounters.

It's not about quality of the game — 5E is a pretty decent game — it's about honesty.

It never lays out what is it designed to do and never tells you that if you want something else, you've picked a wrong game, unlike pretty much every other game in the market.

And all that naturally leads to people trying to hammer nails with a damn microscope.

 

[Campbell]

It can be really easy to feel stuck in the D&D culture and ecosystem. I spent a number of years in the hobby wanting something different than I was getting, not knowing how to get it, trying desperately to make D&D into a game it just is not.

If you have never been in that place. Never experienced that frustration or social pressure to conform to the dominant play culture. Never been called selfish for explaining what you are looking for in gaming. If you have never experienced that creative anxiety it is damn near impossible to understand how difficult that can be.

I was often led to believe that what I wanted was selfish, too much to expect, or that it was my fault that I struggled to get it from D&D.

I am not looking for converts. I would just like a measure of acknowledgement for the craft of other games, the technique involved, and the unique strengths they bring to the table. I try to do the same for 5e. Not always as well as I should, but I'm putting in real effort.

 

[loverdrive]

It can be really easy to feel stuck in the D&D culture and ecosystem. I spent a number of years in the hobby wanting something different than I was getting, not knowing how to get it, trying desperately to make D&D into a game it just is not.

If you have never been in that place. Never experienced that frustration or social pressure to conform to the dominant play culture. Never been called selfish for explaining what you are looking for in gaming. If you have never experienced that creative anxiety it is damn near impossible to understand how difficult that can be.

I was often led to believe that what I wanted was selfish, too much to expect, or that it was my fault that I struggled to get it from D&D.

I am not looking for converts. I would just like a measure of acknowledgement for the craft of other games, the technique involved, and the unique strengths they bring to the table. I try to do the same for 5e. Not always as well as I should, but I'm putting in real effort.

You damn telepath, stop stealing thoughts from my head!

On a serious note, thanks for articulating what I couldn't.

 

[billd91]

It's not about quality of the game — 5E is a pretty decent game — it's about honesty.

It never lays out what is it designed to do and never tells you that if you want something else, you've picked a wrong game, unlike pretty much every other game in the market.

And all that naturally leads to people trying to hammer nails with a damn microscope.

Do you think it should be normal for a product to sing the praises of other products by other companies? I don't see that many places - why should you expect that of D&D - or worse, why would you outright say it's a function of dishonesty that it doesn't?

The PH claims that D&D is a role playing game about storytelling in worlds of swords and sorcery. That's true. Mike Mearls's preface alludes to other games merely claiming that D&D is the first and one of the best (an opinion a lot of people share). This is in pretty stark contrast to Burning Wheel which makes much stronger claims:

Like the old grand-daddy RPG, Dungeons and Dragons, Burning Wheel is nothing more than a template—a trellis for the vines of imagination to grow on. But unlike it’s predecessors, this system is versatile and powerful; it can handle any fantastic situation with consistency and accuracy. The precise story is left open to the players to bring to the game, but whatever that story is, this system can handle it.

That's a lot of hubris, implying it's the only system (as of its publication date in 2002) that is versatile and powerful and can handle any fantastic situation with consistency and accuracy.

If there's a lack of honesty here, it's not coming from D&D.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Except people who get into D&D don't do that because they saw it on a shelf in some store. They do that because they've seen it in Stranger Things or whatever.

For normies, D&D is synonymous with role-playing games — and since it does zero effort to explain that it's not the only one — it often ends up being the only roleplaying game a normie encounters.

It's not about quality of the game — 5E is a pretty decent game — it's about honesty.

It never lays out what is it designed to do and never tells you that if you want something else, you've picked a wrong game, unlike pretty much every other game in the market.

And all that naturally leads to people trying to hammer nails with a damn microscope.

It literally tells you what it is designed to do on page 5 of the PHB (right after the preface).

Also, I own a LOT of different RPGs, and I can't think of one that tells you to go play a different RPG.

There was a time, not so long ago, when it could be legitimately hard to find RPGs. I have "The Complete Guide to Role Playing Games" by Rick Swan sitting on my shelf because, when I was younger, it was one of the only sources I could find on a variety of RPGs. Finding many of those games was next to impossible.

Nowadays, that isn't the case. Anyone with an internet connection has access to a lot of different RPGs, info about RPGs, and even live plays where they can watch how a game plays. While Crit Role primarily runs 5e, they've done quite a few one shots with different systems. I feel like if you're in this hobby and you don't know about other RPGs, you're either very new or haven't been at all curious about what else is out there.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Yeah, most of the people I know who play TTRPGs at all, started with DND and then branched out-- the big thing is the other games don't have any actual penetration outside of spaces filled with people who are already in the hobby, beyond maybe something like the original Bloodlines video game nabbing White Wolf some fans, or Warhammer having enough clout to have its own stores to bring in interested people (and now the Total War products.) So there are avenues through which people might hear about DND from outside the hobby, but its more limited for the other products we're discussing-- although Paizo, Onyx Path, and Games Workshop all have stuff in that department, even Call of Cthulu has some stuff-- some Japanese TRPGs have associated Anime and such too (Record of the Grancrest War comes to mind, along with Log Horizon) from what I know.

But for instance, there's no Blades in the Dark branded video game-- the closest thing to that is that it wears it bloodborne/dishonored/thief influences on its sleeve, so if you manage to get it into someone's hands there's a chance they're already a fan of its milieu. There's no celebrity voice actors who are popular outside the TTRPG sphere trying to play Dungeon World, they only really advertise themselves in ways-- whether due to resources or whatever, that will reach current DND players, whereas DND advertises itself to the general public. It also has a longer history and a built up cache in pop culture, but even if you yeeted the franchise into the sun, its players might go elsewhere but other games would still have to develop that presence outside the hobby.
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@loverdrive that idea of DND as a narrow bespoke experience that lies to its audience about being broad is more of a you thing than a universal truth thing, the game certainly tells you that its for swords and magic fantasy, if there's anything within that particular category that you think it can't do, you will (and certainly have, whatever you chose to do with the information) have found that people have done it quite successfully. I know from reading your other posts that you just sort of dismiss that as them not understanding what a truly successful experience would be like, but short of some sort sort of credentialism / appeal to authority where playing a bunch of games is an intrinsically more valuable experience than learning how to make one game do lots of things, that would be hotly contested by people who have as much or more experience than you do, you aren't likely to make it very far with it.

That's a big part of what this comes down to, its literally differing aesthetic movements over what it means for system to matter, to some people that means the mechanics must be as tailored to the fantasy as possible, but to others it can mean a need for versatility within a single set of mechanics. Its literally the difference between "System Matters, therefore you need a system tailored for what you're trying to do" and "System Matters, therefore you need a broad system that allows you to do all the things you want to do" while there are games arguably even broader than 5e DND (side-eyes FATE) whenever we have this discussion about how DND should be used, those two movements are clashing.

As an example, I can run horror in DND no problem (or hell, in Pathfinder 2e), but other people see it as a deal breaker that players can optimize and be powerful, a big part of that is that the essence of horror and what is necessary to create it, is inherently subjective. For me, something like Dragon Age works well, you don't need to be disempowered but to experience dark themes, creepy implications, and gruesome lethality, but other people see disempowerment as the essence of horror. I'm not wrong by default or anything, and I have a decade of experience backing up my view, nevermind the people that agree with it that have even more, and that doesn't go away even if someone can match that experience who says otherwise. Heck, its a view I hold even though I do also play some bespoke games-- sometimes they're too bespoke so they break when my needs differ in some specific way (which is separate from when I play them to experience them as intended in a 'study the game design' kind of way.)

 

[loverdrive]

Do you think it should be normal for a product to sing the praises of other products by other companies? I don't see that many places - why should you expect that of D&D - or worse, why would you outright say it's a function of dishonesty that it doesn't?

While acknowledging other products is nice, it's not what I was going for.

By the way, I'll apologize if I sound a bit too agressive or just say incomprehensible naughty word. English is a language I barely speak, so most of the time I don't have enough words.



What I'm trying to say, it's dishonest to not acknowledge very real limitations.

"a role playing game about storytelling in worlds of swords and sorcery" is like super vague and barely says anything. Where it scope ends? Even "sword and sorcery" is kinda dubious, since there are rules for assault rifles and lasguns, but anyway.

Compare it to:

Any Fate game that you play should provide the potential and opportunity for drama among and between the characters, and give you a chance to relate to them as people. A game about adventurers mindlessly punching increasing numbers of bigger, badder bad guys is not Fate. A game about adventurers struggling to lead normal lives despite being destined to fight ultimate evil is.

whiich just outright tells you what Fate isn't and can never be.

That's a lot of hubris, implying it's the only system (as of its publication date in 2002) that is versatile and powerful and can handle any fantastic situation with consistency and accuracy.

I surely concede this point.