D&D 5E is a Fighter/cleric etc less powerful using a shield

[Helldritch]

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/06/18...ns-for-the-purposes-of-the-dual-wielder-feat/

and
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/04/20/dual-wielder-and-shield/

Right there. It is not the intended rule. But you can houserule it. Your table your rule.
All links show that you can do it as a houserule. Not as RAI. (and not even close to RAW in many interpretations not only mine.) Same thing for fighting styles. It's one or the other. Not a cumulation of them. But...

Once again. Your table, your rule. Nothing more to add on that.

 

[Flamestrike]

Right there. It is not the intended rule.

Yeah, like I said above in my post. The Devs have stated that (despite it being OK in RAW) the intent of dual weilder was for it not to apply to improvised weapons. I agree with you that this is the only point of contention.

By RAW (and RAI):

1) If I have a shield at hand, I can use it as an improvised weapon.
2) I am not proficient in this attack unless I am proficient in improvised weapons.
3) Assuming the only thing I hold is the shield, and I hold it in one hand only, I can obtain Dueling F/S's +2 to damage with the shield if I use it as a weapon.
4) If I bash someone with the shield it deals 1d4+Str damage (like any improvised weapon)
5) If I am a Paladin I can smite evil with my shield If I use it as a weapon.
6) Even if I bash someone with my shield as an improvised weapon, I retain the +2 to AC.

All good so far.

The question is re: TWF with the shield.

Improvised weapons do not (by default) have the 'light' property. Thus it is impossible to TWF with improvised weapons unless the DM attributes the 'light' property to the weapon; which he is perfectly entitled to do via RAW for smaller improvised weapons. RAW lets a DM give a broken bottle the same stats as a dagger - making a broken bottle a finesse + light improvised weapon, or allows him to grant a 10' long ladder 'reach' or grant a 5' long crowbar the 'heavy' quality. And so forth.

So by RAW, yes you can TWF with two improvised weapons (as long as the DM awards them the 'light' property).

An example would be two sharpened toothbrushes (shivs). Yes you can TWF with those improvised weapons (as long as the DM agrees they qualify as 'light').

The only issue in dispute is the Dual Weilder feat. The Devs have stated (for some reason i dont understand) that the Feat was not designed to be used with improvised weapons. It's got me stuffed why seeing as this ruling is inconsistent with every other ruling on the topic of 'what counts as a weapon'.

Although RAW and consistent with prior rulings, the feat should apply to improvised weapons, the Devs have stated it wasnt intended to be used that way, and then leave it as a DMs call.

There is nothing in RAW that stops a PC from using a shield as an off hand weapons (assuming he has taken the Dual Weilder feat). The Devs may not have meant it to work that way, but RAW doesnt reflect that.

RAI maybe, but ultimately its up to a DMs call. Aint nothing broken with it, so I certainly allow it.

 

[Ahrimon]

I do find it interesting that being proficient with a shield does not include using it as a weapon. As I understand it, using the shield as a weapon was a common occurrence in battle, whether simply bashing or striking with the edge.

 

[auburn2]

How is bashing someone with the rim of your shield going to do less damage than hitting them with a club?

Compared to a shield a club is going much faster when it strikes your body and has a smaller contact area. There is comparable momentum which is distributed over a smaller area (and likely a more vulnerable area as well). This results in higher shear loads on your bones and tissue as they decelerate the club to a stop. This analysis assumes you are jabbing the club end at someone in a fashion similar to how you would bash with a shield. If you swing the club like a baseball bat you have angular momentum as well as linear momentum and in this case the total momentum would be substantially higher than it would be with the shield bash and still distributed over a smaller area.

In layman's terms getting bashed in the head with a shield (in a normal non-captain America fashion) is more or less the equivalent of taking a hard hit in a football or hockey game - on occasion it will cause a concussion and in very rare instances it will kill. Taking a solid hit with a club will routinely break bones and will often crack your skull.

 

[Flamestrike]

Compared to a shield a club is going much faster when it strikes your body and has a smaller contact area.

There is comparable momentum which is distributed over a smaller area (and likely a more vulnerable area as well). This results in higher shear loads on your bones and tissue as they decelerate the club to a stop. This analysis assumes you are jabbing the club end at someone in a fashion similar to how you would bash with a shield. If you swing the club like a baseball bat you have angular momentum as well as linear momentum and in this case the total momentum would be substantially higher than it would be with the shield bash and still distributed over a smaller area.

You smash them with the edge mate, not the flat of the shield.

Its harder than hitting someone with a club (no proficiency bonus unless you have highly specialised training via Tavern Bralwler) but a clean hit with the edge of a shield is gonna hit you with the same force as a solid whack with a club.

In layman's terms getting bashed in the head with a shield (in a normal non-captain America fashion) is more or less the equivalent of taking a hard hit in a football or hockey game - on occasion it will cause a concussion and in very rare instances it will kill. Taking a solid hit with a club will routinely break bones and will often crack your skull.

No-one is arguing that clubs arent easier to use. They're designed to be used as weapons (unlike shields).

Anyone could pick up a club and smack someone with it. AFAIK every class in 5E is proficient with them.

Over the course of a minute of combat, your average Fighter with a club is going to deal way more damage and be far more dangerous than a person with a shield. Lack of proficiency creates a massive DPR disparity between the two.

If the Fighter was specialised in fighting with the shield, then the damage comes up to par. Of course, if the Fighter that is using the club simply spends the same time down the Gym (adding +2 to Str instead of learning the Tavern Brawler feat) his DPR is still going to be superior.

 

[Helldritch]

I really don't understand your obsession with shield doing damage.
They might do some minor concussion dmg. You won't have enough momentum with your shield to do long term damage as a club would.
You will destabilize, trip and even daze but the hurt won't be permanent.

Using a shield like you want it to be is simply less effective. Using the edge of the shield might be doable against a neophyte combatant, but against even the lowliest hobgoblin, town guard or soldier, you should create an opening that should give an advantage to your opponent as you open yourself. At least that what it is happening in real life (ever went the arena in a medieval ground festival? I did.)

Yep, you would do damage doing what you describe. But not even as much as a club, especialy against an armored opponent. And any opponent worth its salt would see you comming a mile away and would prepare for his counter attack as you open yourself to be hit. A real bash, used as it should be, will push the opponent and even trip him. Shield master is one of the few feats that really got it right from what happens in real life. Try as you may, you won't convince me that your position is logical. But then again, your table your rules.

And please don't be mistaken. I really appreciate your point of views and your comments. You're articulate and you express your views with passion. Kudo on that.