Is D&D a heroic game?

[Andor]

My favorite games have been when the PCs are cowardly, greedy, treacherous, cruel and stupid -and all of the above! They tend to be more fun (and funnier, too) and have more surprises that way.

I give you Blackadder the RPG

 

[Ranger REG]

I think the Master said it best:

*stifles a chuckle*

Master. Riiight.

 

[Slife]

Yes. DnD is certainly heroic. Who could forget the valient struggle that Red Book DnD undertook, taking out the evil Doctor Malvidis' killer satellites at great personal risk, daring doom in the face of danger in order to preserve life on earth. We cannot fully express the debt we owe to heros like DnD.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I voted "no" because the link given leaned more towards a moral hero than a hellenic hero, although the system does not require hellenic heroes though it does encourage them. If you kept your campaigns from 1-5th level, you may never even reach the hellenic level of heroism.

The old Marvel game forced moral heroism as did at least one version of Shadowrun. D&D does not care if what you do is good as long as it is challenging.

 

[Rothe]

That's a good distinction. Many people (incorrectly) think of literary heroism as being defined by contemporary moral and ethical standards of "good" -- and this simply isn't the case. If it were, the Volsungs, Jason, Lancelot, etc would all be questionable heroes at best (all of them and more did some decidely immoral things).

Agreed, I think The gneech said it well in post #25

....A "hero" is somebody who performs extraordinary deeds and has adventures. Usually, particularly in the post-romantic world, they are also designed to be beacons of whatever the moral values of the day, but they don't have to be.

There is a good reason for them to be, tho -- most people find "good" heroes (even if they're flawed or only "a bit better than the people around them" in the case of characters like Snake Plisskin or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser) more likeable, more memorable, and more compelling over time.

-The Gneech

By contemporary standards Volsungs, Jason, Lancelot, etc. did some very immoral deeds. However, the "hero" typically felt great guilt over acts that were immoral in his own time. Lancelot is probably the example we can understand the best as closest to us in time and thought. Compare Jason and the greek heros, being "weak" was more of a character flaw than theft, betraying ones family (even if you did not know them to be your family) was more "immoral" than attacking and enslaving strangers. Think of Oedipus' guilt. By contemproary standards he had no idea he slew his father and wed his mother, but motive (or mens rea) didn't matter to the ancient greeks for such crimes.

I question if D&D does emulate the second phase of the hero's journey, the quest. IIRC a key element of the quest was the hero was to adventure through great odds to redeem something of value, but of the greatest value was the hero discovering himself by acting in a manner consistent with the values of his time, even if at some point he slips or falls from grace. Thus reinforcing cultural values of the time, act rightly and you will succeed.

These elements can be found in modern "adventure stories" as well IMHO. Conan succeeding through his barbarian code versus the hypocrisy of civilization; whilst civilized men are driven to wanton acquisition of gain and will do anything for it, there are lines Conan will not cross- like the betrayal of friends. Conan to me, was about the noble savage. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser are friends through thick and thin, two men against a corrupt world. Neither Conan, Fafhrd or the Grey Mouser sought to make the world a better place, although their actions often did. Not that I think REH or Fritz had any moral in mind for their tales, but both writers were men of their time and if what they wrote didn't resonate with their audience (or at least what their editors thought) it wouldn't have sold.

All said and done, I voted D&D as not inherently heroic, with some elements that actually discourage it; although, in all the groups past and present I've played in we have been heroic in the sense of risking our character's lives to aid the innocent without need of pay. Of course, the bad guy treasure is always needed to fund the cause of good.

 

[Elfdart]

I give you Blackadder the RPG

Actually, our games feature many a Cunning Plan gone awry.

 

[I'm A Banana]

D&D does not care if what you do is good as long as it is challenging.

I find that it is more accurate to say that D&D wants you to be good morally, but won't let that get in the way of having a good time. I mean, there's no base class that requires you to be Evil, and the alignment descriptions of the Evil alignments all place them firmly in "the worst you can be" areas. It allows you to play as villains, but it subtly wants you to play as heroes...though I guess either way, it's a MASSIVE level of villainy or heroism.

IIRC a key element of the quest was the hero was to adventure through great odds to redeem something of value, but of the greatest value was the hero discovering himself by acting in a manner consistent with the values of his time, even if at some point he slips or falls from grace. Thus reinforcing cultural values of the time, act rightly and you will succeed.

I believe it would be constructive to note that Joseph Campbell is not the first, last, or middle word on analyzing mythos.

And I believe that D&D heroes *do* reinforce cultural values of our time, and, specifically, some American cultural values. For instance, there's the persistant idea of the Frontier that Must Be Explored (a Manifest Destiny if I've ever heard one!), there is a Civilization vs. Barbarism struggle (the great cultural myth of ethnocentrism at it's greatest), there are often Ancient Fallen Kingdoms of Glory (toss in the Fall of Rome, which is a bit about Civ vs. Barbs), there is Cultural and Gender Diversity (Black people are better at basketball, Elves are better at archery! It's just Nature!), there is Science and Learning (Wizards are the ultimate nerds with power!), there is Romantic Naturalism ("Mother Nature" is a force in the world that opposes Civilization!), the aforementioned Noble Savage remark (Everyone Is Equal! Yay!), there is even Underdog Support (overthrowing corrupt regimes is a staple of D&D adventure).

Even the selfish, immoral, decedant D&D characters represent a type of heroism, albeit the stereotypical anti-heroism wherein rejecting conventions is a good thing (and where no one can stop them from partying and rocking out! Pursuit of Happiness, y0s!)

 

[Ranger REG]

I voted "no" because the link given leaned more towards a moral hero than a hellenic hero, although the system does not require hellenic heroes though it does encourage them. If you kept your campaigns from 1-5th level, you may never even reach the hellenic level of heroism.

The old Marvel game forced moral heroism as did at least one version of Shadowrun. D&D does not care if what you do is good as long as it is challenging.

Moral heroism? Nah, you won't find that in my game, which does include at least one paladin.

 

[Felon]

D&D's heroic as long as you look at heroism in very narrow terms.

The system kind of goads you into unheroic behavior. You are expected to invade the lair of creatures, both intelligent and bestial, and kill all of the strong males (the women, children, and infirm might be spared to live out a questionable existence without their men). You are expected to strike first when possible, rather than fight only in self-defense. You are expected to strip the bad guys down to their underwear after you kill them (anyone who's seen Raimi's The Quick & the Dead should have a good mental picture of how heroic that is). You are expected to smash open sarcophogi and rob the corpses within. By the time you're 10th-level, you are expected to have the blood of hundreds of living things on your hands; you're as much a cold-blooded, steely-eyed killer as any monster you might encounter.

But, you can console yourself by saying they all had it coming.

 

[Melan]

My favorite games have been when the PCs are cowardly, greedy, treacherous, cruel and stupid -and all of the above! They tend to be more fun (and funnier, too) and have more surprises that way.

That, plus it is funny when they buy the farm in some random chaotic event they are responsible for.