Is D&D a heroic game?

[jdrakeh]

The literary heroe thing is interesting, as in 1st ed and in B/X, there were provisions for the "settling down" phase after the "2nd quarter" of the literary hero

There was also a clumsy attempt at providing rules for the genesis of heroes via 0-Level PCs in AD&D 1e. The idea was sound, but poorly implemented. Swordhawk Rules did it a bit better, but still clung too tightly to the original AD&D rules IMHO.

 

[Melan]

D&D is a flexible game accommodating various divergent styles, among them heroic ones. Baseline D&D is as heroic as murder and robbery can be - that is, not very much. Consider: even supposed do-gooders adventure for the basest motivations, namely treasure and experience points. If they didn't get these, would the players continue to aid small communities with an orc problem or other petty problems? Questionable. The very ethos of D&D revolves around the violent acquisition of materialistic gains. Heroism is the polar opposite of this attitude.

I personally consider D&D strongly anti-heroic, sort of a wild west meets the modern world with mediaeval and ancient trappings. This makes it well suited to emulate some sword and sorcery fiction like the Cugel and Ffahrd&Mouser tales, but a very poor game for heroics. Granted, I like it precisely this way.

 

[greywulf]

Nope. Not any more.

Co-incidentally I wrote about self-same thing a day or two ago: http://wiki.greywulf.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/LupusGris/AllAmericanHeroes

(warning, politics 'n' stuff. Don't say I didn't warn ya!)

 

[Bagpuss]

If one finds that D&D isn't heroic because it doesn't model the entire myth, then they must also find that Beowulf's battle with Grendel isn't heroic, that King Arthur's questing knights and his final battle with Modred wasn't heroic, and that the efforts of Frodo, Gandalf, and company weren't heroic.

That's a pill that I don't think many folks are ready to swallow.

Beowolf wasn't fighting Grendel to steal his stuff, Arthur wasn't fighting Modred to take his stuff and Frodo didn't go to Mount Doom to steal anything, but to actually destroy a powerful artefact.

 

[gizmo33]

DnD is heroic iff my dice are heroic. Is the sound of one hand clapping heroic?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Beowolf wasn't fighting Grendel to steal his stuff, Arthur wasn't fighting Modred to take his stuff and Frodo didn't go to Mount Doom to steal anything, but to actually destroy a powerful artefact.

It strikes me that core D&D posits that "good vs. evil" is one of main themes of the game. Part of the reason we have alignments, even. "Getting their stuff" is just standard wartime pillaging. Of course, when you slay the bad guys, you put their knowledge to the use of the Good guys.

In other words, "beating up things to take their stuff away from them" isn't the only default motivation for characters that the rules assume. The rules assume that they'll want to save the princess, stop the advancing orc horde, kill the necromancer, and overthrow the corrupt empire because they are Good, not because they want their stuff.

Of course, there's a large element of simple exploration, too, wherein it's a bit more mercenary. The dungeon exists for you to go into it and earn fame and fortune braving it's dangers. It's as heroic as, say, the journey of Columbus or the other Conquistordores -- or even Indiana Jones. Going into some dangerous unknown territory for the good of your homeland (and, of course, yourself). That's Adventurous, but it's not entirely Heroic.

But then, in the course of that adventure, they perform great feats of magnificent daring and courage that are definately beyond most mortal ability...thus shaping up to be Heroic, though in a different way.

They fight evil and perform great deeds. This is *very* heroic material, stuff you'll find examples of both in legend and history. To consider otherwise is basically to limit the definition of "heroic" to something more artificially narrow (like "only normal people can be heroic!" is artificially narrow).

 

[Ranger REG]

DnD is heroic iff my dice are heroic. Is the sound of one hand clapping heroic?

If the "one hand clapping" represent the dice, then it ain't heroic. You need the "other hand" or in this case, your head. You have all the tools (i.e., skills, BAB, class features, spells, etc.) to act like a larger-than-life hero, how you use the tools can make you one.

A sage advice from an old-school wargamer.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

D&D and gives us the chance to "perform" super-human acts to overcome supposedly insurmountable odds. It is heroic.

The characters may not be Superman-in Shining-Armor Paladin types, but that doesn't stop the characters surmounting the insurmountable (or being TPK'd while trying).

 

[MerricB]

Beowolf wasn't fighting Grendel to steal his stuff, Arthur wasn't fighting Modred to take his stuff and Frodo didn't go to Mount Doom to steal anything, but to actually destroy a powerful artefact.

However, take a good look at the Iliad.

Cheers!

 

[RFisher]

Yes & no.

On the one hand, D&D gives you the freedom to be a hero or not.

On the other hand, the vast majority of D&D PCs I've witnessed over the years tend towards heroism in the long run. This makes me suspect that aspects of the game encourage heroism.

Perhaps the thing that really makes the game heroic is the fact that it gives us the choice--& it can even make the choice feel difficult despite being only a game--yet we still choose the heroic path more often than not.

At least, that's my experience.