D&D 5E Is It Impossible To Benefit From 'One With Shadows'?

[aramis erak]

Even if they know where you are, being unable to use their targeting sense (usually sight or Darkvision) on you means disadvantage to hit you. PHB Page 291. Invisble Condition.

And, thanks to the 5E casting rules, they can't target you with spells.

 

[Prism]

I'm still a bit unsure why you would want to hide during combat using this ability anyway. Hiding when invisible is surely used when moving not when stationary. You could also argue that a hide check with its required action is not needed. Dexterity (stealth) during your move action (even though you don't move) or during the actual use of this ability is enough. Hiding isn't the only way to be quiet.

e.g warlock steps into the shadows and becomes invisible. The player then states they are attempted to be quite. DM asks for a stealth check. Creatures who don't have a passive perception higher than this check are not entirely sure where the warlock now is. Creatures that do can in some way detect/hear the warlock.

Out of combat its all a non issue since you don't use actions anyway to control the timing of things.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I mean, this is a worthwhile ability regardless of how you deal with hiding rules. Dim light is common. Invisibility is basically always advantageous. It's only non useful when you need your action more for other stuff. Any game where ambushes are a thing, or you have time to prepare for a fight, this is useful.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

I was wondering how being invisible without being 'hidden' (because you didn't use an action to Hide) interacts with Perception/Stealth.

Being unseen is a prerequisite of being Hidden.

Hiding, in the game mechanic, is being unseen, unheard, unsmelt, unfelt, leaving no tracks, disturbing none of the envionment, etc. A Hidden person is concealed with respect to all of an observer's senses. An unseen person (which includes invisibility) is only concealed with respect to vision.

Being unseen means you can now attempt to Hide (because you can't Hide if you are observed).

Being invisible, however, has lots and lots of other advantages. Some examples: You can't be targeted with magic missile or chain lightning or eldritch blast, or anything else with "that you can see" in it's targeting sentence (which includes helpful spells like bless and healing word, so be careful). Neither detect magic nor detect evil detects you (sort-of - detect magic will detect the presence of magic within 30ft of the caster, but they can't get location and college). You get advantage on attacks if your target can't see you; attackers get disadvantage because they can't see you.

 

[Mirtek]

PHB p177
Stealth: You make a stealth check when you attempt to conceal yourself from ennemies, slink past guards, slip away withouth being noticed or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard.

Correct.

Hiding: yaddi yadda... An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and still has to stay quiet.

First of all it has to make use of it's option to "can always try to hide" because it is not automatically hidden just by being invisible. Unless it hides after being invisible everybody still knows exactly where it is as the act of becoming invisible has not changed that at all.

So
Yes the attacker will try to find you.

No, unless you added a hide check on top of your invisibility the attacker still knows exactly in which square you are. Only after a successful stealth check the attacker has to make a perception check to determine whether you're still in your original square or sneaked, teleported, planeshifed yadda yadda away to somewhere else

Do I DM suboptimaly?

No, you just applied logic and common sense. However the interaction between the stealth rules and invisibility as written have neither

 

[S'mon]

However the interaction between the stealth rules and invisibility as written have neither[/FONT][/COLOR]

There needs to be either a flat DC to locate Invisible creatures, or else you should get a free Hide roll when you use an action to turn Invisible. Either would work.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

You could always multiclass rogue, then you can hide as bonus action.

 

[Plaguescarred]

It's been shown in this thread what makes your location unknown (hiding) and invisibility, while allowing you to try to hide, doesn't inherently do so, instead saying your location can be detected. You only need to make a perception check to detect hidden creature, not invisible one. You only give away your location upon attacking when hidden, not invisible. You only fail to notice hidden creature to be surprise, not invisible one. And so on....

 

[ThePolarBear]

1) PHB p177
Stealth: You make a stealth check when you attempt to conceal yourself from ennemies, slink past guards, slip away withouth being noticed or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard.

Hiding: yaddi yadda... An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and still has to stay quiet.

PHB p291
Invisible: An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscure. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any track it leaves.
Attacks against the invisible creature have disadvantage...

2a) Let's start: Part of the hide action is trying to not being seen or heard.

3) Do I DM suboptimaly? I don't think so. I'm on the hard side of DMing. But I hope that I'm fair.

There're 2 big uses for this.

4) 1: Improved dodge. Not only do enemies have disadvantage to hit you, but you also become untargetable for many spells and get advantage on your next shot. Can be combo'd with warcaster and booming blade.

2b) 2: Hide in plain sight. You need to take the hide action first (and it's safe to assume anyone out of combat taking any kind of caution will take the hide action at some point), then a second action to turn invisible. Very similar to the ranger 10 ability, but faster and no stealth bonus. You can now ambush someone or just rest safely rest for 1 or 8 hours.
Bonus points if your DM doesn't count it if "you move" when riding a cart or a mount.


This is generally not a good escape ability. Maybe if you have a good head start, multiclass rogue, multiclass fighter, add misty step to get some distance, or Suggest someone close their eyes and count to 10.

As always, i've added the number and trimmed the posts so that it isn't too much of a wall.

1) PHB 192, Hide section. "When you take the Hide action..." You forgot to add this in your analysis, and then...

2a&b)Helldritch starts his point with "Part of the hide action...". One with the Shadows states that you can't take actions (btw, bonus actions are "additional actions", so not even a rogue can get around it with Cunning Action). Since you are not hidden yet, you can't take an hide action. And don't forget the action economy since you can't take another action until the next turn, Action Surge excluded. Even then you can:
- take your Hide action before becoming invisible, and then invisibility has no bearing on your "can hide or not" equation, and it's just a bonus on top of an already "successful" action (though you might have other benefits)
- hide afterwards, breaking invisibility and having to check for all the hiding requirements again, or you end up visible AND spotted, no roll necessary.

All of Helldritch examples are flawed, and point 2 of mellored can't be used to hide in plain sight unless that sight comes after the power has already been used, since the invocation has no power to do so (guess this was your intention with the point, am i right?)
Out of combat: No problem, you do not need to do actions to hide out of combat. In combat? Though luck.

3) As already said, you are not "dm"ing wrong. I just think it's more of an out of combat invocation then anything else. Smart players could use it for other reasons, and could come up as a decent alternative to the hide action, but that's not a power for hiding in combat. At most, to help an hidden warlock hide better in combat.

4) I would not consider invisibility an "improved" dodge. By not taking the dodge action instead you impose disadvantage to things that target with sight instead of being limited (or helped) by the "you can see" part of the dodge action. You do not gain advantage on dex saving throws (against everything, not just things you can see), you are not limited by the "0 speed" limitation but must not move to keep those boni (other thread i wrote bonuses... poor me). You can't act, not even taking reactions if you want to stay invisible. You gain advantage on your next attack roll but then you are no longer invisible. Pros and cons, so not really a direct step up.

By the way Helldritch: I'm not trying to come out as a grammar nazi but... enemy and enemies have only one N, and appear and disappear have 2 P's. I'm not a native english or american speaker, so i also will make a lot of errors (one that always tries to sneak in is "Disvantage" instead of "disadvantage"). Please, do not take this as an insult, i would like to be corrected to get better at writing. Thanks

Edit: Little correction: when i write "since you are not hidden, you can't hide" i mean "since you are not heavily obscured, you can't hide". Yay for spellchecking -.-

 

[Helldritch]

[MENTION=6857451]ThePolarBear[/MENTION]
Thanks a lot for the grammar course. Blame auto corrector in an other language. On my cell phone these grammar errors can and will happen.

None of my examples are flawed (at least from my point of view)
People here apply the sneak action to someone who is not sneaking, naming the warlock!
He is not trying to sneak past anyone. He is just standing there, not moving, trying to breathe as silently as possible.
Does that count as a stealth check? Nope. So no action has been taken.
Can he be detected with a perception check? Of course he can.
Rules on invisibility are crappy at best so are the rules on perception vs sneak.
If you use common sense and RAI, you will rule it the same way I did.

1) PHB 192, Hide section. "When you take the Hide action..." You forgot to add this in your analysis, and then...
None of the warlocks in my examples are taking the hide action. None of them are moving. None of them are trying to be sneaky. They just stand where they were, hoping that they won't be attacked. The enemy only makes a perception check to confirm that the target is still in place.

Facts:
1) The enemy knows where the warlock was prior to his disappearance.
2) The enemy does not know what power enabled the warlock to disappear.
3) The enemy is thus not aware that the warlock can't move.
4) The warlock holds his breath. Thus trying to negate any sounds coming from him.
5) The enemy can always strike the zone where the warlock was last seen.
Now this part must be clarified again. The warlock has not moved. But there is no way to be absolutely certain that he is still in place. There are too many ways to be invisible that let you move after the fact.
6) Yes the enemy will try a perception check to see clues of the warlock's whereabouts. A perception check means that the enemy is looking for footprints, breathing sounds or some other clues. None of these apply to our warlock since the warlock is not taking the hide action but he is trying to hold is breath or he is trying to breathe slowly. Thus we have to set an arbitrary DC.
That DC will be high or low depending on what's going on around.

On the other hand.
If you considered that you can immediately find and invisible, unmoving and suspended object with no perception or investigation checks; then invisibility means nothing at all except to give disadvantage on attack rolls. For some people, if you follow the RAW, that is exactly what it is. Not in my book.

DM: You get in the room. You immediately notice an invisible sword on the ground. After all the sword can't take a hide action...

Sometimes, the RAW is right. Sometimes the RAI is way better. It's a DM call to judge.